#social 2015-01-20
2015-01-20 UTC
danbri, almereyda_, bblfish, Arnaud, KevinMarks, JakeHart_, shepazu, jaywink, jaywink_, pfefferle, bblfish_, the_frey, jaensen, jaensen_ and danbri1 joined the channel
# 
ben_thatmustbeme !tell elf-pavlik, tantek I share my whitelist / contacts to make vouch easier (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/whitelist) and hit the same problem of what to list as the rel= for the list. Finally found that it actually makes most sense to just use rel="me" (http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability)
almereyda_, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme, the_frey, Zakim, jasnell, AdamB and eprodrom joined the channel
# 
eprodrom Hello
# AdamB hello, how goes it
# 
elf-pavlik Zakim, code?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, which teleconferences?
AnnB joined the channel
# elf-pavlik Zakim, what teleconferences?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, what conferences?
RRSAgent joined the channel
# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/20-social-irc
# elf-pavlik Zakim, code?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P2 is me
bill_looby joined the channel
cwebber2 joined the channel
# elf-pavlik sorry Arnaud, this time I use messy voip app and just want to make sure i can connect
# AdamB Zakim, aaaa is me
# eprodrom Zakim, aacc is me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# eprodrom AUGH
# elf-pavlik q-
# 
KevinMarks that's me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
tantek joined the channel
# KevinMarks zakim, +1.408.335.aadd is me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# wseltzer didn't catch the name
# elf-pavlik who said IPcaller?
# wseltzer zakim, [IPC is Bill
# Lloyd_Fassett zakim, +1.541.410.aabb is me
# wseltzer zakim, Bill is really Bill_Looby
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# elf-pavlik i could scribe
# AnnB +1 on thanks to elf!
# elf-pavlik glad to help! :)
# elf-pavlik scribenick: elf-pavlik
# elf-pavlik chair: Arnaud
# elf-pavlik rrsagent, make records public
# elf-pavlik topic: Approval of Minutes of 16 December 2014 Teleconf
# eprodrom +1
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: any objections?
# elf-pavlik topic: Approval of Minutes of 13 January 2015 Teleconf
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: any objections?
# elf-pavlik ... approved
# eprodrom +1
# eprodrom Whew!
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: minutes tentative until approved
# eprodrom Me!
# elf-pavlik ... next week chair eprodrom
# elf-pavlik ... Jan 27th
# elf-pavlik topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
# AnnB applauds Tantek's sensitivity to language
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: dates for milestones month & year instead of exact day
dromasca joined the channel
# elf-pavlik ... fewer fine grained milesontes
# elf-pavlik ... easier for us to stay more flexible with it
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: thank you Evan for doing it
# elf-pavlik ... close actions 23 and 24
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: will no go one by one, anyone has updates on any of them?
# elf-pavlik ... any actions open for which you have problem and you need some kind of support?
# elf-pavlik ... anything that stops you from completing thos actions
# eprodrom q+
# jessica_lily Zakim, ??P4 is me
# jessica_lily Zakim, mute me
# jessica_lily sorry i'm late all
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: on ACTION-25 expecting IG meeting tomorrow where we should have chance to address it
# elf-pavlik ... we should continue to move forward with collecting requirements for Social API
# AnnB q+
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: for those not on IG - change of chairs Mark needed to step down and Ann volounteered, still looking for co-chair!
# elf-pavlik ... please step up if you would like to get some experience
bblfish_ joined the channel
shepazu joined the channel
# elf-pavlik AnnB: also waiting for approval from new boss, especially in relation to travel
# elf-pavlik AnnB: would like support from elf as background co-chair
# elf-pavlik ... happy to hold those meetings even before formalized
harry and hhalpin joined the channel
# elf-pavlik jasnell: ACTION-30 all content archived and can be made available for us if needed
# AnnB re: chairing of SocialIG ... that is, if that arrangement is OK with elf
# 
Loqi harry: rhiaro left you a message on 1/15 at 2:04pm: http://pandoc.amy.gy - improvements/bug reports welcome
# elf-pavlik jasnell: also following up on ACTION-29, please expect update next week
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: anyone else would like to declair victory?
# AnnB +1 on same channel ... makes sense
# elf-pavlik tantek: harry said he will ask systeam to look into restoring OpenSocial blog, permalinks and content
# AnnB the others in IG would have to agree
# elf-pavlik AnnB, please count on me in IG ! :)
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: closing 27, 28 and 30
# AnnB a deep bow of gratitude to elf
# elf-pavlik ... thank you!
# elf-pavlik :)
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: no new raised issues, we will need to tackle those open at some point
# elf-pavlik ... we will need some product to organize issues better
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: please make proposals on how to address issues
# elf-pavlik ... we should address them and officialy close
# elf-pavlik ... so that we can move spec further
# elf-pavlik topic: Activity Streams 2.0's path to Candidate Recommendation (CR)
# eprodrom q-
# elf-pavlik tantek: about previous topic, question or request or pool
# elf-pavlik ... to reconsider if then want to use #social IRC channel to share it with WG to improve cross polination, cross working
# elf-pavlik AnnB: makes a lot of sense
# elf-pavlik tantek: will put it forward as formal proposal
# AdamB being a member of both i have no problems with that either,
# elf-pavlik jasnell: back on issues, ISSUE-7 current draft addresses it
# elf-pavlik ... provides clear rules how to support pre JSON-LD syntax
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: I suggest to send email to the list with proposed resolution
# elf-pavlik ... we can put it on a agenda on the next call
# elf-pavlik ... please makr it as pending review
# elf-pavlik s/makr/mark/
# elf-pavlik elf: i would prefer to move MediaObject for next week
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: please put it on next week agenda
# elf-pavlik topic: Activity Streams 2.0's path to Candidate Recommendation (CR)
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: just to highlight W3C process
# elf-pavlik ... used to have stage callled Last Call
# 
harry Note that we have a schedule: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter
# elf-pavlik ... we think we are done and now invite world to comment
# elf-pavlik ... then CR after that
# elf-pavlik ... now process become simpler and combined it into single Candidate Recommendation
# elf-pavlik ... spec republished as new draft
# elf-pavlik ... in practice chairs will need to produce *transition request*
# elf-pavlik ... chairs from other WG will get notifications
# elf-pavlik ... i put it on agenda ^
# elf-pavlik ... important one - have Test Suite
# elf-pavlik ... maybe a test framework
# elf-pavlik ... doesn't need to be complete at time of publishing the CR
# elf-pavlik ... people who want to provide feedback on their implementations need to have test to check their work
# elf-pavlik ... we also need to gather feedback on implementation work and experience
# AnnB wishes Tantek would put those points into the record
# elf-pavlik ... as we go to CR we need to define as group criteria of declairing victory
# AnnB notes that "me" statements won't be recorded ... they're just side comments
# AnnB OK
# AnnB thanks
# elf-pavlik ... at least 2 implementations required and passing the test suite
# elf-pavlik ... each feature needs *at leaset 2 implementations*
# 
jasnell There are three aspects: (1) Syntax Production ... verify that an implementation produces valid AS2 (2) Syntax Consumption ... verify that an implementation is properly able to parse and understand all normative serialization and (3) Semantics ... make sure that an implementation properly understands the semantics of the data it's working with.
# elf-pavlik ... i had some talks with James about this and he has some ideas
# elf-pavlik ... the easier we make it to people to implement and test their implemenations the better
# elf-pavlik ... i hope people realize that it involves quite some of work
# elf-pavlik ... i try to prepare you to step up and take on some of that work
# hhalpin Note that we need at least *two* interoperable implementations but we really prefer more.
# elf-pavlik ... we need to *document implementation reports*
# hhalpin At this stage, a wiki-page to keep track of implementations make sense, and we can start a test-suite on github.
# elf-pavlik ... we need workflow for collecting such reports
# hhalpin See here for more info on testing: http://testthewebforward.org/
# wseltzer hhalpin beat me to it
# elf-pavlik ... we need to start thinking about what it will take to do all that
# elf-pavlik wild wild west ;)
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we need to claim that we had a wide review of the specification and decide if we have any features at risk
# elf-pavlik ... i learned in the hard way in LDP WG
# elf-pavlik ... as we move forward the specification gets more and more stable
# elf-pavlik ... when we get to CR we say: save for you to implement and unless we find problem we will make no changes
# elf-pavlik ... safety valve - features at risk
# elf-pavlik ... if we don't feel fully confident about some features we can mark them as *Feature at risk*
# elf-pavlik ... this way we can simply remove it and the rest of the spec can safely move forward
# elf-pavlik ... otherwise it will require going again into cycle of CR
# elf-pavlik ... once again i learned it the hard way
# elf-pavlik ... we ended up with one feature which we didn't get implemented
# hhalpin Actually, of more concern to me is that we don't have a FPWD of the API as well.
# elf-pavlik ... we have a lot of work to do and please take it as clear invitation to help
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik ... jasnell took a lot of work and he could recive some help from the group
# hhalpin Ideally, as there may be dependencies, we didn't want for one to go to CR before the other.
# elf-pavlik tantek: first of all thank you Arnaud for this excelent overview
# elf-pavlik ... in many WG and many draft for getting test suites for specs
# elf-pavlik ... we can start with all features marked as *at risk*
# elf-pavlik ... this way people who care about them, will produce test case and implemenation
# KevinMarks +1 to test-driven spec dev
# elf-pavlik ... this allows us the freedom to as a group to decide if we want to wait for tests and implementation for big number of features
# elf-pavlik ... or smaller number of features and ship faster
# hhalpin bblfish, see the testthewebforward.org page
# bill_looby q+
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i feel concerend about testing process
# elf-pavlik ... especially at this point, simple JSON-LD processor can consume AS2.0 content without any need to understand semantics underneeth
# elf-pavlik ... do we have best practices for testing data structures without an API recomendation?
# elf-pavlik ... not clear what to do with AS2.0 on its own
# hhalpin In general, we need the API to go to CR at same time at AS 2.0. See charter.
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we need to clarify what exactly we test
# elf-pavlik ... we need to develop test framework and explain to people how tests look like for people to contribute tests
# elf-pavlik bill_looby: question about *features*
# elf-pavlik ... not clear how we define features
# elf-pavlik ... do we want to tie down individual APIs and call them features?
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we have data format itself and the context it gets used in
# elf-pavlik ... we can't test right now any of the behaviours
# AnnB s/underneeth/underneath/
# elf-pavlik ... for now we can for example make a validator
# elf-pavlik ... similar as we did during work on ATOM format
# AnnB s/excelent /excellent /
# elf-pavlik ... in the long term, we could have set of valid and invalid AS2.0 documents
# elf-pavlik ... once we get API defined then we can go back and create test suite together with context we use them
jasnell joined the channel
# eprodrom I like the validation angle
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: i didn't expect us to have answers to all those questions right away
# elf-pavlik ... that's why i wanted to bring them up today
# elf-pavlik ... we need to have an idea what we want to test
# elf-pavlik ... we need to at least know where we go with it to move forward
# elf-pavlik tantek: given long history and experience with ActivityStreams we should go for a higher bar than just a validator or something that checks only syntax or data
# elf-pavlik ... i know we don't have an API yet but don't think we need one
# elf-pavlik ... just to test various object types we work with
# elf-pavlik ... let's raise the bar!
# elf-pavlik sandro: couple of thoughs
# elf-pavlik ... we don't need a test suite
# elf-pavlik ... we need an evidence that spec has proper implementations
# elf-pavlik ... and agreement that they correctly implement the spec
# KevinMarks possible tool: http://apiary.io
# elf-pavlik ... test suite acts only as one of techniques to proove proper implementations
# elf-pavlik ... on acting everyting as 'at risk' dosn't sound right to me
# elf-pavlik ... it should act as *highlighting* some features and would not come helpful for community
# elf-pavlik ... we would make a really strong case to do it this way
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: i understand it as makring everything what doesn't have tests marked as 'at risk'
# elf-pavlik sandro: i've seen specs with 2 or 3 features *at risk* but 5 and more sounds like bluring it all
# KevinMarks right, but we have inherited a lot of speculative features from our inputs
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: I agree with sandro, test suite is only a means to an end
# elf-pavlik ... test suite often makes it easier for poeple to test their implementation
# elf-pavlik ... let's leave it for this week
# elf-pavlik topic: Action draft status
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we have this document that James started developing
# elf-pavlik ... i would like to know where we stand af of this document
# hhalpin tantek - I'm wondering if there's some other analogous cases in other WGs.
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we have updated version of a draft which i have kept up to date with other document
# elf-pavlik ... at this point would make sense to acknowledge if we want to work on ti
# elf-pavlik ... we need a lot of implementaiton experience and to get more people looking at it
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: any comments?
# elf-pavlik ... i would like to propose next week to consider publising it as FPWD
# eprodrom +1
# hhalpin Would be good to have some more discussion of it onlist beforehand.
# elf-pavlik ... we'll put it as fromal proposal for next week, please prepare to take a position on this
# elf-pavlik jasnell: please take a look at editor draft
# elf-pavlik jasnell: link to draft?
# KevinMarks the original AS process was in effect a Union of features in existing platforms
# elf-pavlik topic: Social API / Protocol
shepazutu joined the channel
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: i want to make sure we on the same page
# AnnB should that be an action for everyone? to read Editor's draft before next week?
# KevinMarks interop requirement means redefining it as an Intersection
# elf-pavlik ... we had very extensive activity going over various social APIs out there
# elf-pavlik ... trying to educate ourselves
# bill_looby q+
# elf-pavlik ... now how we go from there to have a draft
# hhalpin Well, we need an editor :)
# elf-pavlik ... email from harry puzzled me announcing first draft before next F2F meeting
# eprodrom +q
# eprodrom Sorry, I thought I was speaking next
# elf-pavlik bill_looby: i implemented AS withing Connections product
# elf-pavlik ... if i have long list of requried features, product featues, structural features
# elf-pavlik bill_looby could you please spak little slower?
# elf-pavlik ... i don't want to fill the wiki with lots of useless text
# elf-pavlik ... interesting question from tantek about providing a test cases
# elf-pavlik ... we could provide it for some of features we already implemented
# KevinMarks +q
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who makes noise?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: glad to have you here!
# elf-pavlik ... we hopw for presentation of connections product
# elf-pavlik ... especially review of your API
# elf-pavlik bill_looby: on conference next week, but could do it week after that
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: we should try to collect functionality out of those reviews
# elf-pavlik +1
# elf-pavlik ... we started last fall but we should update it
# elf-pavlik ... one of the big new things that came out - game mechanics, enterprise activities
# elf-pavlik ... i'd love to get to provisional tumbs up/down on this list of requirements
# elf-pavlik ... so that we can start soliciting some requirements for the API
# elf-pavlik ... please *go over those requirements*, start conversation around them
# elf-pavlik ... so next week we can decide on those requirements
# bill_looby just as a note - I can add a lot of text to those requirements
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks: AS tried to be union of all this stuff while currently in W3C i see it more as intersection
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: the discussion will continue
# bill_looby if there is any format restrictions/suggestions let me know
# elf-pavlik ... thank all for joining today
# hhalpin +1
# elf-pavlik thanks Arnaud!
# AnnB thanks Arnaud!
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/20-social-minutes.html trackbot
# elf-pavlik excited to try rhiaro's http://pandoc.amy.gy/
# AnnB who was on phone at 314 and 514?
shepazu joined the channel
# AnnB rhiaro .. heheh
# AnnB 514 was Lloyd Fassett
# bill_looby . . . . btw, for anyone who is still on and has had issues with the Wiki - My login (which allows me open my profile on W3C) tells me I've an incorrect password on the Wiki
# bill_looby I've changed it several times (using the link suggested) but to no avail :-(
# AnnB actually, 514 ...aacc was EvanP
# elf-pavlik rhiaro++
# jasnell btw, start of a node.js AS2 impl... http://github.com/jasnell/activitystreams.js
the_frey joined the channel
# elf-pavlik AnnB would you like to announce IG meeting for tomorrow? :)
jaywink joined the channel
# elf-pavlik need to run and help cooking dinner :)
# AnnB bye elf
# AnnB and yes, I will send note re IG meeting tomorrow
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik re:friends list. I share my whitelist / contacts to make vouch easier (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/whitelist) and hit the same problem of what to list as the rel= for the list. Finally found that it actually makes most sense to just use rel="me" (http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability)
# AnnB +1 on rhiaro 's cool new "Pandocticon" converter!
# elf-pavlik tantek: Feb 9th - 22nd we do dev sprint on public transport, i should have some reusable pieces of code after that to publish logs of my transit consumption (trips i take on buses, trains, metro etc.) https://edgeryders.eu/en/unmonastery/hacking-public-transport-matera-and-beyond
# elf-pavlik i also would like to ASAP properly attribute people give me tickets for trains buses etc. thanks to great community of friends lately i didn't need to hitchhike that much in a cold :D
nicolagreco joined the channel
# elf-pavlik but those two tie nicely together, just for short trips in a city i take without having tickets
# elf-pavlik so trips + tickets (if any) + who gifted me tickets
# elf-pavlik after that to balance data about my consumptions with data about my contributions i'll need something on my homepage similar to what one finds on https://github.com/elf-pavlik
# elf-pavlik including stuff like posts to public mailing lists, edits to wikis etc. for now PESOS pattern
# elf-pavlik could try POSSE if nick gets http://sockethub.org/ updated to AS2.0
# elf-pavlik it already has certain support for SMTP and IRC so could just reuse that :)
the_frey_ joined the channel
# 
tantek elf-pavlik: I'm definitely interested in POSSEing to email lists per http://indiewebcamp.com/email_list#POSSE_to_an_email_list
# elf-pavlik converting logs of this channel to AS2.0 will come handy here
# elf-pavlik yes, which should make it rather straight forward
# elf-pavlik almost ;)
# elf-pavlik we still don't have automatic conversion between formats in AS2.0 examples
# elf-pavlik i'll work on JSON-LD, Turtle and RDFa since that works super straight forward
# elf-pavlik yes, but we don't have code to do that yet
# elf-pavlik i would like to try with log of this channel
# elf-pavlik once i convert it to JSON-LD i can add it to my graph store
# elf-pavlik and query it very easily + provide LDF interface for it http://linkeddatafragments.org/
# elf-pavlik similar to http://linkeddatafragments.org/data/
# elf-pavlik you can try it out here http://client.linkeddatafragments.org/
# elf-pavlik i could save queries like "what open source project elf commited to this month" all "all activites in W3C groups of elf in 2014" etc.
# elf-pavlik or "all food elf ate in Berlin in 2014" :D ping aaronpk
# elf-pavlik going further - who contributed to growing food eaten by elf-pavlik in Nuremberg during https://border-none.net/2014 ( @adactio paid for lunch i ate but still someone else has grown/transported/cooked the actual food... )
# KevinMarks if you publish logs of train journeys you make without tickets, can the authorities treat it as a confession?
# elf-pavlik not sure if i care, expecially that i don't recognize many/all commonly recognized authorites :)
# elf-pavlik but everyone will have equal chance to develop one's own opinion about my I/O consumptions/contributions
# elf-pavlik i don't expect that we need anything near consensus on that
# elf-pavlik some background on how i roll: http://creative.arte.tv/en/community/strictly-moneyless
# elf-pavlik dinner time! cooked by fellow @unhosted friend https://twitter.com/fkooman
# elf-pavlik BTW he ( @fkooman / tuxed.net ) worked a lot on auth (SAML etc.), i'll ask him to review https://indieauth.com ...
# tantek elf-pavlik: ^^^ sounds like you've more Itches to document: https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Wwelves.org_perpetual-tripper#Itches
the_frey joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme hmm, got no response on confirmation from sandro for IWC Cambridge
the_frey joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme i saw
# ben_thatmustbeme !tell sandro i'll be co-organizing IWC Cambridge 2015, can you confirm that we have a venue for those dates? 2015-03-19/20?
jaensen and the_frey joined the channel
# AnnB is anyone tracking the issue of net neutrality legislation in US congress?
# AnnB I'm being asked for opinion, to support my company's position ... but don't know enough
# AnnB (which I'll say)
# AnnB would be good to have some solid references
# AnnB we're in favor of openness & net neutrality
# AnnB so far as I know, W3C has been very neutral (because members' opinions vary) ... TimBL OTOH has been vocal
# AnnB (he taking a personal position)
# AnnB I'll go look for Mozilla ...
# AnnB oh yeah, EFF would be good
bblfish joined the channel
# AnnB yes, Tim's all about net neutrality
# AnnB the question is, US legislation is being proposed .. where should our lobbying effort be?
# tantek original citation I believe (scroll to bottom) https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/03/17/FastAlwaysOn
the_frey joined the channel
# AnnB one set of proposals has been about FCC changes to Title II in Communications Act
# AnnB that seems to be what sensible (to my eyes) people support
# AnnB Republicans are currently proposing changes to Title I ... saying the Title II proposals will cause piles of new taxes etc
# AnnB that no Democrats support the Title I position says somethign to me
# AnnB general background on net neutrality, FCC, "Titles", etc: http://www.thenation.com/article/177425/verizon-fcc-and-what-you-need-know-about-net-neutrality#
# AnnB great synopsis, Tantek! I'll use it ...
# AnnB (attributed to Tim Bray, I presume?)
tantek, the_frey, almereyda_, the_frey_ and danbri joined the channel