2015-02-17 UTC
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# 15:42 tantek by my read, people can still add user-stories to the wiki til the call :) # 15:43 almereyda Oh, Tuesday again. # 15:43 almereyda Like; last call for User Stories? # 15:45 tantek well the deadline is today, which we can interpret as either by the telcon, or midnight tonight (pick a timezone you like ;) ) # 15:52 tantek add them! and link back to the originals on your site (Originally posted on: ) timbl joined the channel
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# 17:55 Zakim sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is # 17:55 AnnB is watching via IRC, but in a meeting so cannot dial in nor participate very much # 17:55 Zakim ok, elf-pavlik; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes # 17:56 elf-pavlik now Zakim will announce when telecon starts so we don't join 'to early' ... # 17:56 benthatmustbeme preps to join for the first time # 17:57 benthatmustbeme i need to move to some centralized chat service so i don't need to keep irc running on multiple machines # 17:57 Zakim saw 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, elf-pavlik # 17:58 eprodrom trackbot, start meeting RRSAgent joined the channel
# 17:58 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes # 17:58 Zakim sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is # 17:58 eprodrom Zakim, this is SOCL # 17:58 Zakim ok, eprodrom; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 17:59 eprodrom I switched to decaf yesterday. I'm on 48 hours no caffeine. # 17:59 eprodrom So I've got a headache and I'm totally sleepy # 18:00 eprodrom I'm going to be 100% on top of my game for this call # 18:00 benthatmustbeme i'm in cwebber2 joined the channel
# 18:00 Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, elf-pavlik (muted), +1.617.247.aaaa (muted), dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk # 18:00 AnnB sends eprodrom virtual Tylenol # 18:00 bblfish Hi, in conference in Brussels on distributed social web # 18:00 benthatmustbeme zakim aaaa is me # 18:01 benthatmustbeme unmute me # 18:01 Zakim benthatmustbeme should no longer be muted # 18:02 benthatmustbeme Zakim, mute me # 18:02 Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, elf-pavlik, benthatmustbeme (muted), dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, cwebber2 (muted) # 18:02 AnnB I'm here only via IRC # 18:02 eprodrom cwebber2: no, it's not you # 18:03 Zakim sorry, rhiaro, I do not recognize a party named 'P11' # 18:03 Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, elf-pavlik, benthatmustbeme (muted), dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, cwebber2 (muted), Sandro, rhiaro (muted), hhalpin # 18:03 eprodrom scribenick cwebber2 # 18:04 cwebber2 eprodrom: first order of business is to approve last week's minutes # 18:05 harry cwebber, can you do "eprodrom: blah blah" # 18:05 harry and then for multiple lines, "... blah blah" # 18:05 Zakim harry, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 18:06 harry thanks, Zakim should probably not need the "..." but I think it does right now # 18:06 cwebber2 tantek: we have way less people signed up than really are # 18:06 Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, elf-pavlik (muted), benthatmustbeme (muted), dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, cwebber2 (muted), Sandro, rhiaro (muted), hhalpin, tantek, Tsyesika # 18:08 cwebber2 eprodrom: we should line up who can participate remotely # 18:08 cwebber2 ... was a bit chaotic at our last f2f, was fruitful, but would be great to have it more smooth of a process # 18:09 cwebber2 cwebber2: btw, how do I do actions and resolved again? # 18:09 cwebber2 eprodrom: we have a number of actions over the last week # 18:09 cwebber2 ... I'm very glad ann setti (sp?) took over some issues on non-US social networks (??) # 18:10 trackbot action-11 -- Pavlik elf to Expand on Facebook APIs -- due 2014-11-28 -- OPEN # 18:10 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, harry on the speaker queue # 18:10 eprodrom ack elf-pavlik # 18:10 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: would like to handle user stories from facebook, then we can close them # 18:11 cwebber2 ... as long as we make sure it links the other direction # 18:11 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: yes, will link to the user stories from implementation page # 18:11 cwebber2 harry: just so people know the W3C is working to figure out why the open social people who wanted to push this have mysteriously disappeared # 18:11 tantek W3C is trying to figure out why the OpenSocial folks are not being social with this working group? # 18:11 trackbot action-29 -- James Snell to Reach out to open social foundation participants to invite them to join the w3c social web wg -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN # 18:11 cwebber2 eprodrom: the F2F may be a good excuse for their participation there, say would be great to have continunity # 18:12 harry In particular, we had several vendors (SugarCRM, Jive, etc.) heavily push this and then disappear # 18:12 harry In terms of implementation, it doesn't make sense to have only one commercial implementer with a clear product (i.e. IBM Connections) # 18:12 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: reached out to other group (?) they saidjoin their next telecon # 18:12 trackbot action-39 -- Pavlik elf to Follow up with xAPI developers community -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN # 18:12 harry If other folks in the WG or the call have clear commercial products, do ping me ASAP. # 18:13 cwebber2 eprodrom: next item today: an update about the social API # 18:13 cwebber2 ... so! the schedule we kinda laid out last week / a few weeks ago, we'd collect user stories, which we've done, close to 50 user stories # 18:13 cwebber2 ... some very close together, some may be hard to address thru an API bill-looby joined the channel
# 18:13 cwebber2 ... looks like for our next step is to decorate this list # 18:14 Zakim aaronpk, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: eprodrom (86%), bblfish (4%) # 18:14 cwebber2 ... our next step is to decorate the list with upvotes and downvotes # 18:14 cwebber2 ... +1: yes, I need it, will implement, worth doing; -1: so far out of scope we shouldn't do it # 18:14 cwebber2 ... would love to do that with mediawiki-style comments # 18:15 eprodrom ":+1 good idea. --~~~~" # 18:15 cwebber2 tantek: another legitimate use of -1 is to say "this doesn't belong in the first version of the social API, it's too edge case to be in the 0 edition social API. Might mean you're not against the use case, but you don't think it's necessary yet, or don't think it's in the same class of needs as the other user stories" # 18:16 cwebber2 ... 0 is "I don't think it's important, but not opposed to inclusion" # 18:17 cwebber2 tantek: 0 could be "yes I've looked at this, not really compelling, but I'm not opposed to having it drive requirements" # 18:17 cwebber2 tantek: or 0 could be "I think it's already covered, thus irrelevant" # 18:17 cwebber2 eprodrom: I def see -1 as being pulling the emergency brake on something # 18:17 cwebber2 ... it will require some resolution if you use your -1 # 18:18 cwebber2 ... not just because you don't care one way or the other # 18:18 cwebber2 tantek: I have slight difference of opinion, people should be willing to use -1 to restrict requirements # 18:18 cwebber2 ... we want to ship soon, so smaller requirements means ship sooner # 18:19 cwebber2 ... because with -1 I want to ship sooner than ship this # 18:19 cwebber2 eprodrom: I feel a -1 is, if a proposal for this comes in, I won't accept it # 18:19 bill-looby I think we need consistency # 18:19 eprodrom ack elf-pavlik # 18:19 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss -1 not in core, please implement as extension first # 18:19 bill-looby can we make a call ? # 18:19 bblfish it can be subjective to know what is easy or not to do # 18:19 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: I'd like to follow up on focusing on the core, and say "this can be an extension" # 18:20 bblfish for example some people may think that some user stories are difficult to do, because they don't know how to do it # 18:20 cwebber2 ... because hopefully we can have independent implementations # 18:20 cwebber2 eprodrom: we have no user story for any extension mechanism # 18:20 Zakim sees bblfish, cwebber on the speaker queue AdamB joined the channel
# 18:20 Zakim sees bblfish, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:21 cwebber2 eprodrom: yes, but maybe would be good for that to happen before, I think we're at the point where we need to just select them # 18:21 cwebber2 ... I'm not sure we're at a point today to do editorial mergers of sort # 18:22 harry and also note that if you are a +1 and plan to implement, please note your implementation commitment. # 18:22 elf-pavlik ... that could help to fill the space where eprodrom and tantek sound like disagreeing # 18:23 cwebber2 tantek: i think that captures some of that, w3c does this a lot to capture for or against # 18:23 bill-looby FYI - There is an extension mechanism implied by Story "Integration : Bringing tools together" . . . depending on what you consider an extension # 18:23 cwebber2 tantek: so +0 or -0 kind of shows I'm kind of for or against, but I'm okay with what happens # 18:23 cwebber2 ... the "can live with it" is an important opinion that should be captured in these polls, so thanks for bringing up these options # 18:24 cwebber2 eprodrom: so, next item is someone made notes for proposals that we stop editorial at midnight EST, and feedback starts after that # 18:24 eprodrom PROPOSAL: editorial stops 18 Feb 2015 at 00:00 EST, survey runs exactly 1 week # 18:25 aaronpk that means next week's call will be before voting ends # 18:26 eprodrom RESOLVED: editorial stops 18 Feb 2015 at 00:00 EST, survey runs exactly 1 week # 18:26 elf-pavlik RESOLVED: editorial stops 18 Feb 2015 at 00:00 EST, survey runs exactly 1 week # 18:26 harry precisely, it will be called out in the minutes using a special font # 18:26 cwebber2 tantek: I think this is left over from last week, was brought up but not discussed... many assumptions brought into the user stories # 18:27 cwebber2 ... I think it's fine to cite silos as examples of where we've experienced these user stories, but as far as assumptions in our group, we should assume every user in our user story could be on a different system # 18:27 cwebber2 tantek: yes, same system is a degenerate system of that # 18:28 benthatmustbeme s/degenerate system/degenerate case/ # 18:28 cwebber2 ... that has been well documented for a while, but let's make it documented # 18:28 cwebber2 eprodrom: should work independent of network topologies, whether on same/different servies # 18:28 eprodrom ack elf-pavlik # 18:28 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: I'd like to clarify, we have different stories for groups # 18:29 cwebber2 ... I might have a group on my, someone else's server, etc # 18:29 bblfish "You should assume that all of these stories are independent of network topologies: the stories should work whether all the actors have accounts on a single server, on different servers, and independently of where the data is located." # 18:29 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: no note is fine, just wanted to clarify on call # 18:30 cwebber2 dret: yes, since we have a bit of time left, in last maybe 2 weeks, what exactly does the current model of having structured activities mean # 18:31 cwebber2 ... if I had a like syntax, if the like actually is a respond # 18:31 cwebber2 ... if I ask for a respond activity, will that actually get delivered # 18:31 Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, elf-pavlik (muted), benthatmustbeme (muted), dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, cwebber2, Sandro, rhiaro (muted), hhalpin, tantek, bblfish, +1.408.335.aabb, # 18:31 cwebber2 ... for use cases discussed, it seems like must me wondering, is this a weird little hobby of mine, or is it not well specified # 18:31 tantek I think that's the difference between responses (includes all interactions, likes, replies, reposts), and replies (just comments) # 18:31 cwebber2 ... what does the activity structure mean if not that? # 18:32 cwebber2 eprodrom: so harry is on the queue, so will ack, but I think it's an interesting question # 18:32 cwebber2 ... let me give a bit of experience from activitystreams 1.0, early versions had different verbs that were based on different products based on companies' products # 18:33 cwebber2 ... eg digg had a "dug" thing, like you "dug" a url, but that didn't mesh with like etc # 18:33 cwebber2 ... so early system was built to convey that if you don't understand a "dig", fall back to "like" # 18:33 cwebber2 ... I'm not sure if this was conscious consensus or general laziness on part of implementers # 18:33 Zakim sees harry, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 18:33 cwebber2 ... if a like was not literally a like, like the full identifying URI for a like, was just ignored. # 18:34 tantek q+ to note how in IndieWeb we've distinguished responses (includes all interactions, likes, replies, reposts), vs replies (just comments), likes, reposts individually # 18:34 Zakim sees harry, elf-pavlik, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:34 KevinMarks like vs favorite have different mapping - heart versus star too # 18:34 Zakim sees harry, elf-pavlik, tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue # 18:34 cwebber2 harry: (?) yes that means that you have weak inference in the spec # 18:35 Zakim sees harry, elf-pavlik, tantek, bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:35 bill-looby there also wasn't an explicit hierarchical association to the extent there is with a vocabulary iirc # 18:35 cwebber2 eprodrom: not sure if you Should or Must process these as "treat a like as a response" or a "fwoop as a like" and it'll actually get implemented # 18:35 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, tantek, bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:35 rhiaro Quora and Reddit (I think) have upvote which is similar but not quite the same as like, or maybe how similar depends on who is using it and when/where # 18:35 cwebber2 harry: basically the question is whether you should have some inference is should the implementations actually do so # 18:35 cwebber2 ... does schema actually have a product in that space? # 18:36 tantek q+ to also point out that the AS1 experience that eprodrom cited (implementers ignoring "special" likes / inference etc.) is a strong data point *against* arbitrary extensibility of such types etc. in practice, regardless of implementer/customer claims/wants # 18:36 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, tantek, bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:36 cwebber2 ... anything without real code and users will be removed from spect # 18:36 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, tantek, bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:36 dret justcooked up our own way. which is unfortunate. # 18:36 cwebber2 ... at yahoo we did that but had a difficult time gettinmg to scale # 18:36 cwebber2 ... if specs demand to do things implementers won't do # 18:36 eprodrom ack elf-pavlik # 18:36 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss creating official issue for that # 18:36 Zakim sees tantek, bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:37 eprodrom Zakim, who's making noise? # 18:37 Zakim eprodrom, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds # 18:37 harry In particular, it would be great to know if Siemens has a product or even planned product/codebase in this space. # 18:37 cwebber2 ... make it an issue to clarify how to handle custom verbs # 18:38 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note how in IndieWeb we've distinguished responses (includes all interactions, likes, replies, reposts), vs replies (just comments), likes, reposts # 18:38 Zakim ... individually and to also point out that the AS1 experience that eprodrom cited (implementers ignoring "special" likes / inference etc.) is a strong data point *against* # 18:38 Zakim ... arbitrary extensibility of such types etc. in practice, regardless of implementer/customer claims/wants # 18:38 Zakim sees bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:38 harry but we have to see if people actually do it, which is kind of common-sense. dromasca joined the channel
# 18:38 cwebber2 tantek: there's tension between how to distinguish between special responses / all responses # 18:38 cwebber2 ... notion of class of types of posts all interacting/responding to another post # 18:38 cwebber2 ... apis want a way to query all those kinds of posts # 18:39 harry Its possible developer community has moved on since AS1.0 and inference is not so painful/messy for developers. # 18:39 cwebber2 ... which it makes sense to do a core thing for those # 18:39 cwebber2 ... that's our experience in the indiewebcamp community # 18:39 cwebber2 ... because you can post an invitation to invite a 3rd party # 18:39 cwebber2 ... will make sure user stories cover, or else I'll add it # 18:40 Zakim sees bill-looby, dret on the speaker queue # 18:40 elf-pavlik i'll raise it as issue, not sure about proces to officialy open it... # 18:40 cwebber2 dret: it's someone looking at activitystream activity and looking at what it means # 18:40 bill-looby also a federator # 18:41 cwebber2 dret: yes, also a publisher, because I can't interpret it as a response unless I (??) # 18:41 Zakim sees bill-looby, dret, harry on the speaker queue # 18:41 cwebber2 tantek: second point I wanted to emphasize experience with ActivityStreams 1.0 # 18:41 Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, elf-pavlik (muted), benthatmustbeme (muted), dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, cwebber2, Sandro, rhiaro (muted), hhalpin, tantek, bblfish, +1.408.335.aabb, # 18:42 cwebber2 ... there was a brand-centric, company-centric ego of "I have my special dig, or whuffie, and it's so special a snowflake it can't be a like" # 18:42 cwebber2 ... but nobody cared about those beautiful unique snowflakes # 18:42 eprodrom Google+'s first API version had a verb type for "plusOne" # 18:42 elf-pavlik dret, i'll raise it in tracker and we can decide to open it later # 18:43 elf-pavlik dret, even better if you can create it since you explain it very well :) # 18:43 cwebber2 ... it's counter-intuitive to the semantic web community which says extensibility is good, but my expereince is that extensibility is the opposite of interop # 18:43 cwebber2 ... we should look at that as evidence to maybe even leave out extensibility in v1 # 18:43 dret we could at least tell people to label their snowflakes in interoperable ways. at the very least we should have a well-defined story. we don"t have one right now. # 18:43 Zakim sees bill-looby, dret, harry on the speaker queue # 18:43 eprodrom ack bill-looby # 18:43 cwebber2 ... that experience is important, i know many are pro-extensibility, but wanted to put that out there # 18:44 cwebber2 ... I agree that events and event types require heierarchy # 18:44 cwebber2 ... if it has an explicit heirarchy there's an explicit requirement on processors to add such streams # 18:45 cwebber2 eprodrom: I think what you're saying is we need to say "if we can't process this heirarchy, remove that heirarchy" # 18:45 eprodrom s/heirarchy/hierarchy/ # 18:45 cwebber2 bill-looby: also seems implicit in the other decisions we've also nearly made # 18:45 cwebber2 eprodrom: why don't we open this up... dret can you open this as an issue in AS 2.0 # 18:46 cwebber2 bill-looby: other option is to be explicit about early terms # 18:46 cwebber2 harry: that's exactly how we do it now, we use AS 1.0 verb # 18:46 cwebber2 ... we then in this case have an extension field in there which lets anyone understand our specific way of handling this # 18:47 cwebber2 ... so if you really care about htat not just being a dig # 18:48 cwebber2 harry: a bit more formally, we have different ways to process, agree it would be great to do, but also understand it's hard from previous implementers # 18:48 tantek In experience, what implementers/customer,-� sk for* and what they *implement* are two very different things # 18:49 cwebber2 ... we should work with working group to put it in the spec put it in as feature, feature at risk, and if not implementing it by last call, remove or change # 18:49 cwebber2 ... there's a tradition in w3c to wait till implement # 18:49 cwebber2 ... we're hoping to enter last call to see about implementation # 18:49 cwebber2 eprodrom: is there a way we can split the baby on this one # 18:50 cwebber2 ... maybe suggest to publishers "you can do whatever extension you want, but best practice is to use a vocabulary verb because downstream is more likely to see it" # 18:50 tantek q+ to add to Harry's encouragement to implement early. when voting on user-stories, if you +1 as an implementer, say whether you *will* implement it, or *already have implemented!* # 18:50 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:50 dret that's my pet project: the processing model section # 18:50 cwebber2 ... to consumer: you can concentrate on a particular activity type, but look at heirarchy # 18:50 eprodrom ack elf-pavlik # 18:50 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss documenting previous experience # 18:50 cwebber2 ... so everyone should do the right thing, but be aware not everyone might # 18:51 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: one reason I suggested with official document was to reference to links to impelmeentations, proposals, etc # 18:51 cwebber2 ... maybe do resolution at face to face or in near future # 18:51 Zakim tantek, you wanted to add to Harry's encouragement to implement early. when voting on user-stories, if you +1 as an implementer, say whether you *will* implement it, or *already # 18:52 cwebber2 tantek: wanted to emphasize harry's message of implement early, implement often # 18:52 cwebber2 ... if you already have implemented, please indicate that # 18:52 cwebber2 ... even if it only works on a specific network topology, please mention # 18:53 cwebber2 ... and if you did do it cite a URL that shows you did it # 18:53 cwebber2 ... and that's one of the strongest votes you can make for a user story # 18:53 cwebber2 eprodrom: excellent, if we're done with that, we're closing in on the hour # 18:53 cwebber2 ... would love to offer everyone their last 5 minutes back # 18:54 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been eprodrom, elf-pavlik, +1.617.247.aaaa, dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, benthatmustbeme, cwebber2, Sandro, rhiaro, hhalpin, tantek, Tsyesika, # 18:54 eprodrom trackbot, end meeting # 18:54 Zakim ... bblfish, +1.408.335.aabb, AdamB, dromasca # 18:54 eprodrom Oh, thanks harry # 18:54 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been eprodrom, elf-pavlik, +1.617.247.aaaa, dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, benthatmustbeme, cwebber2, Sandro, rhiaro, hhalpin, tantek, Tsyesika, # 18:54 Zakim ... bblfish, +1.408.335.aabb, AdamB, dromasca # 18:55 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: I always forget how the w3c protocol works # 18:56 AnnB rhiaro's converter works well .. # 18:56 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: apparently I bookmarked it, arg, just forgot where it was # 18:58 rhiaro I'm going to add some extra socialwg-specific processing to help tidy up, when I have time ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
# 18:58 rhiaro moving sections, looking for typos that prevent topic/proposals forming correctly etc # 18:59 rhiaro then all we need is one of the bots to run it and add it to the wiki :) # 19:01 tantek nah, bots handling plumbing details leaves humans to focus on more creative endeavours tilgovi joined the channel
# 19:13 Augier Cool to see that happennig ! # 19:33 tilgovi elf-pavlik: I think it's going alright. Some discussions about HTTP APIs have started, and discovery along with it. # 19:33 tilgovi I haven't been as tuned in as I could be, though. harry joined the channel
# 19:35 Zakim disconnecting the lone participant, elf-pavlik, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 19:35 Zakim Attendees were eprodrom, elf-pavlik, +1.617.247.aaaa, dret, [IPcaller], aaronpk, benthatmustbeme, cwebber2, Sandro, rhiaro, hhalpin, tantek, Tsyesika, bblfish, +1.408.335.aabb, bblfish joined the channel
# 19:36 wilkie wow. sorry I missed everything. the pipes burst in my office. # 19:36 wilkie water hitting computers is awfully hilarious and cathartic # 19:41 tantek wilkie 💦🌊📠💻😱🚣 sorry to hear that! # 19:55 wilkie elf-pavlik: it wrecked most of our lobby and the police desk, which was one of the funnier parts to see flooded. timbl joined the channel
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# 21:09 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed AnnB joined the channel
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# 22:02 AnnB where are people supposed to register their votes? # 22:02 AnnB straight in the wiki, on the API User Stories? # 22:03 AnnB ahh... tomorrow .. I missed that bit # 22:04 AnnB I thought I just wasn't seeing it # 22:06 Loqi I added a countdown for 2/17 9:06pm (#5636) tantek, Augier and caseorganic joined the channel
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Loqi Jaywink made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81511&oldid=81505
ben_thatmustbeme good morning tantek
almereyda Oh, Tuesday again.
elf-pavlik hi eprodrom
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/17-social-irc
cwebber2 tantek: another legitimate use of -1 is to say "this doesn't belong in the first version of the social API, it's too edge case to be in the 0 edition social API. Might mean you're not against the use case, but you don't think it's necessary yet, or don't think it's in the same class of needs as the other user stories"
KevinMarks if there's a difference of meaning, use a different term