#social 2015-03-10

2015-03-10 UTC
Guest, harry, SimonTennant1, shepazu_, shepazu, bblfish, cwebber2`, Arnaud and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek good late evening #social. slowly catching back up on IRC things after a weekend away. Loqi, playback my messages please.
#
Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 4 days, 11 hours ago: I would like to discuss collections - how do you see collection maintaining list of its members vs. members maintaining list of collections they stay included in
#
Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 12 hours, 3 minutes ago: (via elf-pavlik) Evan didn't send out agenda email, maybe you will need to back him up and chair tomorrow... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Mar/0048.html
#
tantek !tell elf-pavlik a collection is a type of post created by an author, thus the author maintains that collection, period. http://indiewebcamp.com/collection
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
jaywink joined the channel
#
tantek !tell ben_thatmustbeme yes thank you for the reminder re: chairing tomorrow. updated: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek sounds like we're set for tomorrow then.
#
tantek night night!
#
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82745&oldid=82722
elf-pavlik, ShaneHudson, SimonTennant, SimonTennant1, SimonTennant2, bblfish, the_frey and pfefferle joined the channel
#
Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82747&oldid=82723
pfefferle, elf-pavlik, bblfish, tantek, harry, stevenroose, pfefferle_ and SimonTennant joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik action-5
#
trackbot is looking up action-5.
#
trackbot action-5 -- Harry Halpin to See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. -- due 2014-11-03 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/5
#
elf-pavlik action-12
#
trackbot is looking up action-12.
#
trackbot action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/12
#
elf-pavlik harry++
#
Loqi harry has 3 karma
Guest and jaywink joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik++ I wouldn't have even though about daylight savings time would mean the conf call time would change for anyone who doesn't do daylight savings
#
Loqi elf-pavlik has 9 karma
#
Loqi Ewilde made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82749&oldid=82747
Arnaud and AnnB joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme as people start to flow in
pfefferle and AdamB joined the channel
#
rhiaro Hello
#
rhiaro Is the call in ten minutes, or an hour and ten minutes?
#
rhiaro is mildly confused
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek rhiaro: in ~1:06
#
rhiaro Aha, that's what I thought, then harry's email confused me
#
rhiaro thanks :)
#
tantek email tends to be confusing in general :)
#
rhiaro controversially I like email :p
#
rhiaro It's confusing if it contains wrong informatoin..
#
tantek which it often does, e.g. subject contradicts contents. classic DRY violation.
#
tantek typical email UIs also encourage overly lengthy prose, and the longer the prose, the more likely it is confusing, contradictory, and contains incorrect information.
#
rhiaro Well, not everything can be said in a couple of lines
#
rhiaro Especially when people can talk over you, as in IRC
#
rhiaro Though I also love IRC
hhalpin joined the channel
#
rhiaro They are both good for different types of conversation
#
tantek designing for "not everything" is a very poor design methodology
#
rhiaro It's when people start trying to send me facebook messages that communication problems arise
#
tantek that's the opposite of 80/20
#
rhiaro designing for "not everything"?
#
tantek yes, your reasoning that "Well, not everything can be ..."
#
tantek choosing a solution based on edge case support is a poor way to choose a solution
#
rhiaro Well, I would say there are a great many things that deserve a few paragraphs to address and time to think over, rather than spur of the moment responses
#
tantek re: facebook messages - pretty sure you can limit FB messages to only "friends" or only a specific "group" (which you can make empty or only containing one person)
#
rhiaro But I am in academia
#
rhiaro (I just don't check facebook)
#
hhalpin waves
#
tantek "things that deserve a few paragraphs to address" yes that's what blog posts are for :)
#
hhalpin Zakim, start meeting
#
tantek hhalpin: you're off by an hour ;)
#
hhalpin trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc
#
trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
#
trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
#
trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot Date: 10 March 2015
#
rhiaro Well, alright, blogposts work too
#
hhalpin just getting ready :)
#
tantek an hour in advance? ;)
#
rhiaro and for those not priviledged enough to be able to set up a blog, lengthy facebook status updates
#
tantek rhiaro: in fact, for public email list posts, better to blog them first on your own domain, and then just POSSE them to the email list. http://indiewebcamp.com/email_list#POSSE_to_an_email_list
#
rhiaro that's a good idea
#
tantek rhiaro: it's just as easy to setup a personal withknown.com site as it is a FB sign-in. and withknown won't even force you to use your "real name" or add a phone number or any of that other privacy invasive stuff
#
tantek with the current withknown.com we have crossed the "onboarding" barrier as compared to any silo
#
rhiaro hey, you know I'm sold on it - but my non-tech friends don't believe me
#
rhiaro working on it though!
#
tantek rhiaro: have them try signing up on withknown.com on their mobile device (smartphone, iPad etc.) - it's quite slick
#
rhiaro having said that, most of my non-tech friends also can't handle email reply-all, they're entirely slaves to facebook
#
tantek pretty much as simple as tumblr
#
tantek I'm not sure anyone knows how to properly "handle" email reply-all
#
tantek it's a fundamentally broken feature
#
rhiaro is there a reader/aggregator for known?
#
tantek rhiaro: the preposition you're looking for is "in", not "for"
#
AnnB what, then, is your preferred "full" communication system, Tantek? ... IRC with a logging tool, blog posts, and personal web site?
#
rhiaro s/for/in
#
tantek the notion of a separate reader/aggregator is an out of date UI concept dating back to legacy feed file readers of the early 2000s, and is largely obsolete / abandoned compared to integrated reading/posting UIs of modern social networks
#
rhiaro I meant is there a way to pick up the known posts of everyone you care to follow in one place?
#
tantek AnnB - my comms systems are continuously evolving for efficiency
#
AnnB I gather
#
tantek currently IRC is the best for discussions, even better with logging and bots.
#
AnnB I appreciate you seek efficiencies and new paths, but I am not quite there with you yet
#
tantek personal site notes are a good way to post a few sentences, and blog posts are better for a few paragraphs or more.
#
AnnB I like IRC a lot for sort of short discussions (as Amy said above), but not for longer more thoughtful discussion
#
elf-pavlik hhalpin scribe will have a lot to cut from the beggining of minutes now...
#
AnnB for me, reading everyone's blog posts is unrealistic
#
AnnB not into it at all
#
tantek AnnB, the best way to force the pursuit of efficiencies is to focus on building/creating rather than chatting/talking/discussing.
#
tantek whereas those that focus on discussions will stay stuck in whatever discussion app/forum/software/site they get comfortable with
#
hhalpin Or "imaginary" software :)
#
AnnB I understand the spirit of that statement, and to some extent applaud .. but also disagree in some ways
#
tantek not realizing that comms are a means, not an ends
#
hhalpin with purported and non-existent users
#
hhalpin which is typically what we have in some WGs.
#
AnnB seems self-centered to me
#
tantek hhalpin, it's ok, implementers have learned ot ignore those who talk about imaginary software
#
hhalpin These sorts of efforts should be "research" and not in a standards bodies.
#
rhiaro hhalpin, do you know what format the opensocial blog posts are in? I could probably look at getting them online at some point
#
hhalpin They are in a SQL drupal setup. Email greg for a copy
#
tantek rhiaro: ironic that the opensocial blog p���X were never available themselves via any form of opensocial API
#
rhiaro okay!
#
tantek perfect example of a failure to selfdogfood
#
rhiaro I don't know much about open social
#
tantek if you're not using your own "social" system/API/platform for your own notes and blog posts, you're doing it wrong, and no one should pay any attention to your social system/API/platform
#
tantek rhiaro: and now that they and W3C broke all the opensocial permalinks, no one else does either
#
AnnB but, Tantek, not all of us are geeks
#
elf-pavlik our chance to selfdogfood - https://www.w3.org/community/webzakim/
#
AnnB not all of us are going to build our own system ..
#
tantek AnnB - that's a misframed misconception
#
AnnB oh well
#
tantek AnnB - from Kindergarten, we are all taught to be creatives
#
AnnB I'd say I'm plenty creative
#
tantek it is society and limiting statements like "not all of us are geeks" that destroy people's creative expression
#
tantek so I categorically reject such statements
#
AnnB but not necessarily in YOUR specific ways ..
#
tantek because they are (self)-limiting and unproductive
#
AnnB I think you're great
#
AnnB but am I wrong if I don't do things your way
#
AnnB ?
#
AnnB that's how those statements come across
#
AnnB to me
#
hhalpin Tantek, at some point see emails
#
hhalpin re microformat
#
hhalpin and W3C RFF.
#
tantek AnnB - it's not my way
#
tantek it's a common expression
#
tantek the difference between doers/builders and talkers
#
tantek I didn't make that up\
#
tantek I only adopted it
#
tantek hhalpin - are there any emails from actual implementers that I should look at? or is it mostly watercooler whining? (what I remember from FedSocWebIG list etc.)
#
AnnB this may be where the brevity of IRC fails me ... I find this thread to be kind of distressing and depressing
#
hhalpin No, its from our legal staff
#
hhalpin Re the suitability of OWFa licensing and W3C RFF
#
hhalpin I'm signing off on this conversation re microformats as a normative reference, it's gone up to TimBL :)
#
hhalpin Re "self-dog-fooding", W3C is interested in members implementing products as well, so AnnB, if Boeing supports the specs, I think that would be great
#
AnnB I'm all for self-dog-fooding, for those who have the skills and the ya-yas to do it
#
AnnB I'm just saying that the vast majority of the world doesn't ... and shouldn't be dissed for not
#
AnnB I'm in awe of the effort the IndieWeb folks make, actually
#
rhiaro AnnB, I was about to go on to list the advantages I see to email, but you know what, maybe I'll write a blog post about it ;)
#
tantek AnnB - the dissing is not for lack of selfdogfooding, it is for open-ended and unrealistic complex demands
#
tantek selfdogfooding is merely one way that anyone can see the flaws is most demands
#
AnnB blog posts generally just don't work for me ... for various reasons
#
tantek AnnB, have you tried withknown.com ?
#
AnnB not totally sure what you mean, Tantek, re: "open-ended and unrealistic complex demands" ... I just want to communicate with people and discuss things
#
AnnB which is darn hard
#
AnnB no
#
tantek AnnB - most of the user stories are open-ended and unrealistic complex demands
#
AnnB but I'll go look
#
tantek by non-implementers
#
AnnB oh, you're ref'ing user stories
#
tantek and past mailling list posts / threads
#
tantek which are *even worse*
#
AnnB I guess that's the classic issue with "users" ... they're danged humans!
#
rhiaro it *is* useful to have information pushed to you (perhaps by people you don't know) rather than having to seek it out and follow it yourself
#
AnnB with all their myriad complexities
#
tantek AnnB - you've seen the car designed by Homer Simpson?
#
tantek That's the problem we're talking about here
#
AnnB no
#
rhiaro which email is good for until we solve The Discovery Problem
#
tantek rhiaro no that's called spam (information pushed to you)
#
tantek (by people you don't know)
#
rhiaro only if you don't want it
#
rhiaro I pick up lots of new and interesting information from mailing lists, sent by people I don't know
#
tantek rhiaro perhaps 90% of email I receive is stuff I don't want nor need
#
rhiaro Probably that's how I found out about this group
#
tantek opportunity cost for far more intersting things
#
AnnB so what's your vision, Tantek .. use withknown.com to post all my thoughts, pics, whatever? .. then what?
#
tantek AnnB - it's an improvement on the current state
#
AnnB of Facebook or ...???
#
tantek the way you figure out "then what?" is to take incremental steps forward
#
tantek with each step forward, the next step becomes more clear
#
tantek if you take no steps forward you will never figure out "then what?"
#
AnnB I'm all for exploration and experimentation
#
tantek then go for it!
#
rhiaro AnnB, are you staying for indiewebcamp after the f2f? :)
#
AnnB at the same time, I'm trying to figure out how to have discussions with a group of people (eg this one) in something more than IRC bits
#
AnnB Yes! but only until ~4pm Thurs
#
AnnB I'm really looking forward to it
#
rhiaro awesome :D
#
AnnB I understand your selfdogfood, etc efforts, Tantek ...
#
AnnB .. I'm still trying to understand how you think a group of people should discuss stuff
#
tantek AnnB - I hate to say it, but you can't really understand selfdogfooding until you start doing it.
#
tantek That's the point.
#
AnnB ... in more than brief IRC bits
#
AnnB ...??
#
tantek You may *think* you understand, but you don't. Just like you can't understand riding a bicycle until you try riding one.
#
AnnB true on trying
#
AdamB in this context, what is selfdogfooding?
#
AdamB writing code to host my own site?
#
tantek AnnB - indiewebcamp community has been built rapidly and created amazing simple protocols and formats WITHOUT ANY EMAIL LIST
#
tantek that's the point
#
tantek we have found the enemy, and the enemy is the medium of email, which encourages talkers instead of doers.
#
AdamB or using a service that does has already written the code?
#
AnnB I see this with my niece, too
#
tantek AdamB LMGTFY
#
rhiaro tantek, I see a Reader and Notifications listed under 'itches' for Known, so that's a pretty big thing missing for people used to a facebook (etc) feed
#
tantek rhiaro: agreed
#
AnnB regardless, it sounds like you are communicating great with a highly selective group of geeks
#
tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood
#
AnnB ... how do you communicate with the rest of the world? or do you?
#
tantek AnnB - no - we are communicating with those that prioritize creating over talking.
#
AnnB I see that
#
tantek anyone can choose to make that their priority
#
tantek but most apparently choose not to, for whatever reason
#
AnnB but that sounds like you're saying you do not communicate with others
#
AdamB i think that definition is unrealistic for the world .... 99% of people can not build their own creations
#
AnnB "my/our way or the highway" is how that comes across
#
tantek AnnB, no it is a matter of prioritization and maximizing signal to noise ratio.
#
tantek AdamB - see above about Kindergarten vs. later socialization.
#
tantek AnnB - it doesn't matter, talkers on email lists will never build anything
#
tantek so the question is, do you want tools you can use? or do you want endless conversations about future tools?"
#
AnnB hmm .. maybe the gap here is that I was thinking about general discussion adn communication, and you're talking about "building"
#
tantek AnnB - without building, there are no tools.
#
rhiaro for indieweb this makes sense, but I think not so much for this group - to some extent, sure, but there are also a lot of people participating who *have* a lot of experience *building* and *doing* in earlier years, who are maybe doing something else right now without so much capacity to be on the bleeding edge, but who still have valuable contributions to make, and can do so most easily via email
#
tantek rhiaro: I question "valuable contributions" in the context of social web if they're not actually *doing it* on the social web.
Augier joined the channel
#
rhiaro the valuable contributions could be finding out what doesn't work
#
tantek which is why the email list is ignorable if you're a builder
#
rhiaro what hasn't worked in the past
#
tantek rhiaro: the only you find out what doesn't work, is by building it, and finding its limitations
#
tantek otherwise it's all handwaving talk
#
rhiaro surely it's useful to learn from other peoples' experiences on that front?
#
tantek the only *way you find out...
#
rhiaro rather than reinventing the misshappen wheel over and over
#
tantek rhiaro: actually, most of the time no
#
tantek sometimes we succeed because we don't know that we can fail
#
Loqi Shudson made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82751&oldid=82745
#
tantek rhiaro: it's also how simpler things get invented, by completely ignoring the complex overdesign crap of the past
#
rhiaro there's a balance between being held back by other peoples' failures, and failing to stand on their shoulders to progress further
#
AdamB tantek: are you talking about average people with your "builders" or about people in the tech/standards space ?
#
tantek AdamB - I'm talking about all creatives. Did you Google selfdogfood yet?
#
AdamB yep
#
tantek because that's certainly a tool that average people use
#
tantek alright, enough meta-talk, I'm going to work on action 26 a bit
#
tantek Action 26
#
trackbot doesn't understand that ACTION command.
#
tantek Issue 26
#
trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
#
rhiaro action-26
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
#
trackbot is looking up action-26.
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/26
#
tantek trackbot, where is your source?
#
trackbot Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, where is your source?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
#
tantek trackbot, where do we submit pull requests for you?
#
trackbot Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, where do we submit pull requests for you?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
#
tantek AnnB: try setting up a withknown.com and then we can more concrete conversations about this stuff.
#
AnnB this is both a fascinating and a frustrating thread ... I feel like we're going around and around
#
AnnB I look forward to seeing you in person next week!
#
tantek AnnB - exactly as most email lists do - go around and around, and don't actually create or build anything, and why implementers are learning to ignore them.
#
AnnB maybe then I'll understand
#
tantek AnnB I look forward to seeing your withknown.com!
#
AnnB OR maybe you'll consider my points
#
AnnB (dreaming .. )
#
tantek AnnB - make your points on a blog post on your withknown.com and send me the URL
#
elf-pavlik dreaming++
#
Loqi dreaming has 1 karma
#
AdamB email the url to the wg group ;)
#
tantek or paste it in IRC since it's only one line ;)
#
AnnB oh tantek, you are dedicated to your version of the truth ... few have your passion
#
tantek AnnB - it's not my vision, it predates me
#
tantek do, don't just chat
#
AnnB I'm still trying to understand how you choose to communicate about 'normal' stuff that's not about 'building'
#
AnnB brb
#
tantek ok slowly making progress on action-26
tilgovi joined the channel
#
tantek opened a github issue on AS spec to track specifics: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/83
#
tantek this is going to take a lot of pull requests to fix
#
elf-pavlik tantek++
#
Loqi tantek has 161 karma
SimonTennant1 and pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, which conference?
#
Zakim I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, which conferences?
#
Zakim I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, what conferences?
#
Zakim sees SW_HCLS()11:00AM active
#
Zakim sees in schedule XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, IA_WEBPD()1:00PM
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, code?
#
Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), elf-pavlik
#
Arnaud elf, that only works when the meeting has been started
#
Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
#
elf-pavlik TADA ;)
#
Zakim + +1.971.275.aaaa
#
aaronpk Zakim: aaaa is aaronpk
#
Zakim +AdamB
#
aaronpk Zakim, aaaa is aaronpk
#
Zakim +aaronpk; got it
#
aaronpk ugh who decided on comma syntax
#
Arnaud trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
#
trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
#
trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot Date: 10 March 2015
#
tantek hmm - Zakim is not answering again
#
Arnaud zakim, who's on the phone?
#
Zakim I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted
#
Zakim On the phone I see aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud
#
Zakim +[IPcaller]
#
Zakim + +1.401.305.aabb
#
tantek lol restarted
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, IPcaller is me
#
Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, aabb is me
#
Zakim +ben_thatmustbeme; got it
#
Zakim +??P5
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
aaronpk wow so much noise
#
Zakim -??P5
#
Zakim +bblfish
#
Zakim +Lloyd_Fassett
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise
#
Zakim I don't understand 'who's making noise', elf-pavlik
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AdamB (56%), aaronpk (61%)
#
Zakim +Ann
#
aaronpk weird, my phone is on mute
#
Zakim +??P7
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
tantek zakim, ??p7 is me
#
Zakim +tantek; got it
#
elf-pavlik i hear music?
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aaronpk (15%), Arnaud (25%), ??P7 (49%)
#
ben_thatmustbeme aarokpk, could be the line, I don't trust phone mutes
#
elf-pavlik anyone else hearing music?
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: nope
#
Zakim +??P9
#
ben_thatmustbeme wonders if elf-pavlik is having a stroke
bill-looby and Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
#
AnnB elf, do you hear anything besides music?
#
ben_thatmustbeme elf do you smell burning?
#
aaronpk wonders if elf-pavlik dialed the wrong extension
#
AnnB w3c doesn't usually have music when on hold
#
tantek how would you describe the music?
#
AnnB (can you imagine the discussions on which music to play?)
#
aaronpk AnnB++
#
Loqi AnnB has 6 karma
#
elf-pavlik ok now, using friend's ipad which plays tricks on me :S
#
AnnB haha
#
Zakim +??P10
#
rhiaro Zakim, ??P10 is me
#
Zakim +rhiaro; got it
#
rhiaro Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim rhiaro should now be muted
#
Lloyd_Fassett music: the first interoperable social standard
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, ??P9, rhiaro (muted)
#
AnnB Lloyd ++
#
Zakim +Sandro
#
bill-looby Zakim, ??P9 is me
#
Zakim +bill-looby; got it
#
ben_thatmustbeme and the snow is melting up here
#
elf-pavlik chair: tantek
#
ben_thatmustbeme its been a beautiful 40
#
aaronpk waves from sunny 80-degree palm springs
#
elf-pavlik agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10
#
AnnB yak trax .. fantastic for ice
#
tantek Zakim, who is here?
#
Zakim On the phone I see aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, bill-looby, rhiaro (muted), Sandro
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim On IRC I see Lloyd_Fassett, bill-looby, pfefferle, SimonTennant1, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, tantek, AdamB, AnnB, Arnaud, bblfish, elf-pavlik, the_frey, shepazu, Loqi, nickstenn,
#
Zakim ... melvster, wilkie, aaronpk, KevinMarks, oshepherd, wseltzer, ElijahLynn, ben_thatmustbeme, mattl, JakeHart, bret, dwhly, bigbluehat, rhiaro, rektide, trackbot
#
Zakim sees on the phone: aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, bill-looby, rhiaro (muted), Sandro
#
Zakim +??P12
#
AnnB waves at SimonTennant1
#
aaronpk can scribe today unless someone else wants to
#
bret Zakim, ??P12 is me
#
Zakim +bret; got it
#
bret Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim bret should now be muted
#
aaronpk waves
#
SimonTennant1 Hi AnnB
#
hhalpin trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
#
rhiaro 's audio is a bit iffy
#
trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago
#
trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot Date: 10 March 2015
#
tantek scribenick: aaronpk
#
hhalpin just finishing up IPR discussion with TimBL and Wendy re microformats/schema.org
#
elf-pavlik chair: tantek
#
elf-pavlik agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10
#
hhalpin A decision will be forthcoming!
#
hhalpin Zakim, code?
#
Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin
#
aaronpk going on mute
#
Arnaud harry, this was done 10mn ago
#
aaronpk tantek: next week there is no telcon because of f2f
#
aaronpk ... any objections to telcon for the week after?
#
aaronpk ... next telcon is schedule for the 24th as usual unless there are any objections
#
aaronpk TOPIC: minutes from last week
#
aaronpk tantek: any problems/suggestions for the minutes?
#
ben_thatmustbeme +1
#
aaronpk ... anyone want to expliclty express support?
#
elf-pavlik +1
#
tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03-minutes
#
aaronpk ... not hearing objections and some support, declare minutes approved
#
aaronpk TOPIC: f2f meeting
#
aaronpk tantek: please review the f2f wiki page
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
#
aaronpk ... lots of description there for how to get to the venue
#
aaronpk ... looks li ke 13 participants and 3 additional observers
#
aaronpk ... in particular a couple observers fro mthe annotations WG, hope to get good cross-collaboration
#
aaronpk ... if you have specific items for the agenda, feel free to add them
#
aaronpk ... if you think you know what larger topic they fall under add them as a sublist
#
aaronpk ... please sign your agenda item so we know who is responsible for the discussion
#
aaronpk ... sandro, did you have any other suggestions?
jasnell joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik sandro++
#
aaronpk Arnaud: food is provided by sandro, courtesy of a grant by ___
#
Loqi sandro has 1 karma
#
aaronpk missed the acronym sorry
#
AdamB sandro++
#
Loqi sandro has 2 karma
#
Arnaud s/___/QCRI/
#
aaronpk tantek: meeting is at 9am, are we feeding ourselves for breakfast?
#
jasnell Zakim mute me
#
aaronpk sandro: we could order a fruit platter and coffee
#
jasnell Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim sorry, jasnell, I don't know what conference this is
#
elf-pavlik coffee destroys vitamine C ....
#
aaronpk tantek: that would be a great minimum viable breakfast, let's do that and set it at 8:30
#
rhiaro minimumviablebreakfast++
#
Loqi minimumviablebreakfast has 1 karma
#
bret lol
#
aaronpk sandro: i'll make sure everything is ready at 8
#
aaronpk AnnB: would be hlepful if people get there at 8:30 to start setting up their stuff
#
aaronpk argh it got super loud in here
#
hhalpin +1 food from Sandro's grant!!
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is
#
aaronpk tantek: great, looking forward to seeing everyone at 8:30, dress warmly!
#
hhalpin it seems warm in MIT now, so hopefully ice will gone
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, this is SOCL
#
Zakim ok, elf-pavlik; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
hhalpin there was, but it's gone!
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tantek (62%), Sandro (39%)
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik i meant in my physical room
#
elf-pavlik topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
#
AnnB dang; we might have gone sledding!
#
aaronpk TOPIC: open issues
#
AnnB the WG that sleds together ..
#
elf-pavlik sorry aaronpk ...
#
hhalpin q+
#
Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk tantek: will open to the floor to address any open issues
#
elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview
#
tantek q+
#
tantek q?
#
tantek ack hhalpin
#
Zakim sees hhalpin, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim sees hhalpin, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik action-5
#
trackbot is looking up action-5.
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot action-5 -- Harry Halpin to See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. -- due 2014-11-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/5
#
aaronpk hhalpin: i'd like to close out all my actions except for 14
#
elf-pavlik action-12
#
trackbot is looking up action-12.
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/12
#
elf-pavlik action-31
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot is looking up action-31.
#
trackbot action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31
#
aaronpk ... basically brad fitzpatrick has not signed off on w3c licensing so pubsubhubbub cannot be normatively referenced
#
bret is that because google wont let them?
#
elf-pavlik action-40
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot is looking up action-40.
#
trackbot action-40 -- Harry Halpin to Invite annotations wg -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/40
#
aaronpk ... we asked explicltly in november and he said no
#
tantek elf-pavlik: please slow down
#
aaronpk ... i don't think it's worth me pursuing
#
tantek let's take them one at a time
#
aaronpk ... w3c said no they won't host the opensocial blog
#
tantek action-5 completed - no agreement to license.
#
aaronpk ... annotations wg we already have people joining
#
tantek action-12 same as action-5
#
aaronpk ... just finished talkign with wendy and tim about normaitve referecning of microformats and schema
#
elf-pavlik hhalpin++
#
Loqi hhalpin has 1 karma
#
aaronpk ... it's on their agenda to have an official response
#
aaronpk holy crap that was fast
#
ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin++ that was a lot
#
Loqi hhalpin has 2 karma
#
aaronpk ... tim and whitney will be around during the f2f
#
tantek s/whitney/wendy
#
aaronpk wow sorry
#
Zakim -bblfish
bblfish joined the channel
#
aaronpk sorry i'm missing some of this
#
hhalpin I can type this
#
aaronpk thanks
#
hhalpin it's some detailed legalese
#
hhalpin no worries
#
elf-pavlik close action-5
#
trackbot is closing action-5.
#
trackbot Closed action-5.
#
aaronpk i have nothing in my buffer, go ahead annb
#
hhalpin Basically, the question over normative references to non-W3C specs
#
Zakim +bblfish
#
elf-pavlik close action-12
#
trackbot is closing action-12.
#
trackbot Closed action-12.
#
hhalpin for the case of both microformats and schema.org
#
hhalpin is currently being pursued by W3M
#
tantek I asked about whether it had to do with openstand
#
elf-pavlik close action-40
#
trackbot Closed action-40.
#
trackbot is closing action-40.
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
hhalpin in particular, the question is compatibility of microformats with OpenStand (should not be a problem)
#
elf-pavlik close action-31
#
trackbot is closing action-31.
#
trackbot Closed action-31.
#
hhalpin but there may be a legal issue around patent non-asserts (OWFa) and W3C royalty-free
#
ben_thatmustbeme there is definitely a lot to catch up with
#
hhalpin I think Wendy will give that some cycles
#
hhalpin I am not a lawyer so I can't answer that type of question.
#
AnnB Harry's note cover it; thanks
#
elf-pavlik q+ re: action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples
#
Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
AnnB I don't totally understand what the issue is re: microformats
#
ben_thatmustbeme tantek: loop me in specifically on any discussion of Microformats licensing, as i specifically discussed that with Mozilla legal
#
AnnB aha, an instance of Tantek and email!
#
hhalpin Basically, my non-legal opinion is OWFa seems in same space as Note Well from IETF
#
hhalpin and thus should probably be OK (it would *not* be OK if there was no patent commits)
#
hhalpin but I'm not a lawyer
#
aaronpk tantek: I think the issue harry notices is when w3c can and should reference things developed outside the w3c
#
Loqi Alehors made 4 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82756&oldid=82749
#
hhalpin so I think looping in Mozilla legal with Wendy Seltzer and W3C may be a good idea
#
aaronpk ... it means that each individual WG has to go through this and ask these questions
#
aaronpk ... i'm really thankful to harry for going through it
#
elf-pavlik hhalpin++
#
Loqi hhalpin has 3 karma
#
aaronpk ... it's important for a w3c grouip to be able to reference rather than monolithincally bring everything into the w3c
#
AnnB thanks for the overview
#
hhalpin I think here is current policy:
#
hhalpin http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references
#
hhalpin But determining if a single spec matches that is hard sometimes
#
bret dont forget AnnB's q
#
AnnB s/monolithincally /monolithically/
#
aaronpk tantek: so that leaves us with just the one open action for you?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: yes because i don't ersonally work with CONNEG (issue-14)
#
AnnB thanks, bret; Tantek's overview answered it
#
aaronpk ... 14 is open, everything else should be closed
#
elf-pavlik i just closed most of them!
#
bret ah ok
#
aaronpk ... 41 we can say pending review
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview
#
aaronpk ... do note there is a normative reference policy wich I dropped the link to
#
tantek action-37
#
trackbot is looking up action-37.
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/37
#
elf-pavlik action-37
#
trackbot is looking up action-37.
#
trackbot action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/37
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
elf-pavlik sorry!
#
aaronpk ... the question was how do you test a data format
#
aaronpk ... the answer was effectively the testing team said if you ahve an API that consumes then test the APIs
#
aaronpk ... if we *can* test a precise wayt he w3c appreciates it
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk tantek: presumably the way to test s data format is to write a validator, we have that with html and css, was that option considered?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: a validator would be sufficient if there were rules we could put into a w3c validator
#
aaronpk ... the w3c validation team only has so much time, so if we wrote our own validation rules they could do that
#
jasnell +1
#
aaronpk tantek: could you add that option expliciltly? the WG sould consider writing a validator for activitystreams
#
elf-pavlik i can check with Gregg about http://linter.structured-data.org/
#
tantek q+ to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks
#
Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
bill-looby q+
#
Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
tantek ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples
#
Zakim sees tantek, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik action-34
#
trackbot is looking up action-34.
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34
#
bret ya sounds good
#
AnnB wants some music
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax#Activity_Streams_2.0
#
elf-pavlik will make pull request to AS2.0 spec
#
aaronpk sorry i can't hear elf's voice thorugh the background noise in this room
#
tantek elf-pavlik, I don't understand how https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mixing_HTML_Data_Formats applies to the spec so I'll await to see your pull request.
Guest joined the channel
#
Zakim -aaronpk
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
bill-looby Action 15 complete just need someone ro reassign it to me from James Snell (page created here ->https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/IBM_Connections_API)
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot Error finding '15'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
ben_thatmustbeme cannot hear elf-clearly either or I would have transcribed it
#
aaronpk oh crap that's not what i meant to do!
#
Zakim +aaronpk
#
tantek scribenick: AnnB
#
elf-pavlik tantek, please comment directly in W3C tracker, i'll keep it 'Pending Reveiw'
#
aaronpk i thinnk it's going to get quieter in here in a minute, but AnnB can you take over for now?
#
bblfish I heard elf very well though he spoke quickly
#
AnnB sure
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
tantek ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, if needed I can take over too
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
#
elf-pavlik action-37
#
trackbot is looking up action-37.
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/37
#
trackbot action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
#
aaronpk who has a screaming baby in the background?
#
bill-looby Issue 8 ?
#
trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
#
tantek issue-8
#
trackbot is looking up issue-8.
#
trackbot issue-8 -- Test suite for activity streams 2.0 -- open
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/8
#
AnnB hard to scribe what the baby is saying!
#
elf-pavlik AnnB LOL ;-)
#
ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, its easy, gaaa, gaaaa, gooo, gooo
#
Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82757&oldid=82684
#
AnnB bblfish (Henry Story): re: Issue 8 ..
#
elf-pavlik bblfish, can you add note to ISSUE or ACTION in tracker?
#
hhalpin bblfish can add it to tracker
#
AnnB bbfish: discussion about how to test Activity Streams
#
AnnB ... need to test logic of ontology
#
AnnB ... do classes clash with each other?
#
AnnB ... <other examples>
#
AnnB .. these are things one can created tests for
#
elf-pavlik s/bbfish/bblfish/
#
AnnB Tantek: can you make some of these tests for us?
#
elf-pavlik bblfish, http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#non-normative-ontology-definition
#
AnnB bblfish: yes
#
jasnell no
#
jasnell the owl and json-ld context files have not been published correctly yet
#
jasnell but they are available
#
bblfish Action: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent records action 1
#
trackbot Error finding 'testing'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
AnnB jasnell, can you clarify what the "no" is
#
bblfish Action bblfish: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent records action 2
#
trackbot Created ACTION-45 - Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [on Henry Story - due 2015-03-17].
#
jasnell http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/activitystreams2.owl
#
AnnB is in regards to
#
elf-pavlik jasnell++
#
jasnell (the owl is really a ttl file)
#
Loqi jasnell has 6 karma
#
bblfish Action-45?
#
trackbot is looking up Action-45.
#
trackbot Action-45 -- Henry Story to Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/45
#
tantek q?
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
Zakim sees tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
jasnell http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/activitystreams2-context.jsonld
#
tantek ack bill-looby
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik action-15
#
trackbot is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15
#
hhalpin q+
#
Zakim sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
AnnB bill-looby: Action 15 needs to be transferred to me
#
jasnell unfortunately I need to drop now
#
Zakim -Lloyd_Fassett
#
AnnB bye
#
jasnell will be back on next week
#
Loqi I added a countdown for 3/16 10:34am (#5649)
#
elf-pavlik ciao jasnell
#
Zakim -jasnell
#
elf-pavlik jasnell f2f?
#
hhalpin Where are the links?
#
Zakim +Lloyd_Fassett
#
elf-pavlik trackbot, status
#
trackbot knows about these 42 users: Ann, Reuben, Adam, Mark, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Doug, Wendy, Owen, Hyunjin, dave, James, Henry, James, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Erik
#
tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15
#
elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users
#
hhalpin if so, email sysreq@w3.org
#
elf-pavlik action-15
#
trackbot is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15
#
elf-pavlik done!
#
Arnaud https://www.w3.org/Social/track/users
#
hhalpin he should be automatically added
#
hhalpin maybe there is a database/nickname issue
#
elf-pavlik action-15
#
trackbot is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15
#
tantek https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 still shows James Snell
#
AnnB <confusion about how bill-looby gets added to tracker>
#
AnnB <now think maybe he just needed to log in>
#
elf-pavlik action-15
#
trackbot is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15
#
elf-pavlik shows Bill Looby ^
#
aaronpk it got quieter in here now so I can take over scribing AnnB
#
AnnB fine with me!
#
aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
#
Zakim + +1.408.335.aacc
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
tantek zakim, aacc is KevinMarks
#
Zakim +KevinMarks; got it
#
tantek ack hhalpin
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
sandro joined the channel
#
aaronpk hhalpin: there was a concern from w3c about lack of participation of opensocial members
#
tantek scribenick: aaronpk
#
sandro RRSAgent, pointer?
#
RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-38-49
#
aaronpk ... an email to the list clarifying the situation would be helpful
#
tantek is this regarding https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/29 ?
#
aaronpk ...we realize SAP has left the WG and thus no plans to harmonize the social business product
#
aaronpk ... ibm would like to know if harmonization is planned with other businesses
#
tantek action-29
#
trackbot is looking up action-29.
#
trackbot action-29 -- James Snell to Reach out to open social foundation participants to invite them to join the w3c social web wg -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/29
#
aaronpk tantek: is this related to action 29?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: this could be related
#
aaronpk tantek: was there a specific concern you had related to that action?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: yes, is there any existing business you know using the connections API and is there a dependency on LDAP or others?
#
tantek this sounds like a new issue
#
tantek the "is anyone else" part in particular
#
aaronpk ... the the previous APIs were ATOM based so they are not likely to be changed overnight
#
bblfish what is the connections API?
#
aaronpk tantek: i thought i heard what sounds like a new issue
#
aaronpk ... is anyone else besides IBM going to implement or support this API and/or any related APIs?
#
hhalpin Basically, right now we have a number of opensource developers and one social business product (IBM Connections). We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future?
#
tantek new issue?
#
tantek what is the tracker-foo for creating a new issue?
#
hhalpin Let's get them involved!
#
elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
#
AdamB we do plan to implement AS 2.0
#
tantek Issue: We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future?
#
trackbot is creating a new ISSUE.
#
trackbot Created ISSUE-18 - We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between ldp and opensocial planned in the future?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/18/edit>.
#
bblfish yes, like which space is it?
#
tantek Action hhalpin: add details to issue-18
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent records action 3
#
trackbot Created ACTION-46 - Add details to issue-18 [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-17].
#
hhalpin From W3C's perspective, it appears OpenSocial has all dropped out, we'd like to see that situation addressed.
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
tantek ack tantek
#
Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk tantek: I thought I heard you say that the w3c decided to not work on them
#
bblfish q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk hhalpin: correct, the w3c does notwant to support a drupal database
#
aaronpk q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek action-30
#
trackbot is looking up action-30.
#
trackbot action-30 -- James Snell to Ask opensocial folks about w3c archiving their blog posts -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/30
#
aaronpk q+
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
bret heh, makes sense
#
KevinMarks can't you wget it all
#
aaronpk hhalpin: if someone wants to re-setup the drupal instance and snapshot the HTML we would be happpy to add links to them
#
aaronpk ... the systems team does not have time to do that
#
elf-pavlik action-31
#
trackbot is looking up action-31.
#
trackbot action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31
#
aaronpk tantek: w3c has the database...
#
aaronpk hhalpin: no, opensocial has the database
#
KevinMarks who set up the drupal? it was google sites before
#
aaronpk ... contact is on the email list
#
aaronpk tantek: let's stop referring to opensocial since they don't exist. greg wallace has the database
#
aaronpk ___: they don't care because it's too much work to set up the database, but are they willing to host html pages?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: no they don't want to host the html either
#
aaronpk ... they don't want to put any time into this
#
aaronpk tantek: it sounds like your'e saying the systems team doesn't even have a copy of the database
#
AnnB s/___:/bblfish/
#
aaronpk hhalpin: correct, that was not part of the deal, the deal was a domain redirect
#
KevinMarks archive.org seems to have crawled it: https://web.archive.org/web/20140228134017/http://opensocial.org/
#
aaronpk ... systems team claims they do not have the database nor the resources to maintain
#
elf-pavlik can someone who cares about those broken links just follow up on https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31 ?
#
AnnB s/bblfish they/bblfish: they/
#
aaronpk tantek: greg is willing to share the database is my understanding
#
aaronpk ... think we could put out an open call for someone to extract teh DB and provide a static snapshot?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: if someone wants to do it that would be great
#
KevinMarks might be easier to unmung it from archive.org?
#
elf-pavlik tantek++
#
Loqi tantek has 162 karma
#
aaronpk tantek: certainly i think it makes sense to put out an open ca
#
aaronpk ll
Guest joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik can we move on from broken links?
#
aaronpk tantek: i didn't realize putting up a static copy would be so difficult
#
aaronpk hhalpin: you'd have to reinstall drupal, import the SQL database, then snapshot every page
#
aaronpk ... then probably redo any permalinks
#
elf-pavlik do we need to talk about drupal guts now?
#
KevinMarks database antipattern in action
#
bret sounds like a bit of work
#
aaronpk ... it's non-trivial amount of work
#
aaronpk tantek: harry would it be reasonable to make the minor request of you to acquire a copy of the SQL dump from greg?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: i think anyone who wants to do it can contact greg directly
#
elf-pavlik tantek you have email address in https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31
#
aaronpk ... that person can email greg if they want to volunteer
#
rhiaro I'll get a copy of the db dump from Greg
#
aaronpk tantek: do we have any volunteers to acquire a SQL dump?
#
rhiaro And see if I can convert the SQL into something more useful
#
KevinMarks o_O
#
elf-pavlik sandro++
#
rhiaro I'll upload it somewhere ;)
#
aaronpk sandro: and then mail it to the mailing list so that it's in a copy of the acrhives
#
Loqi sandro has 3 karma
#
tantek rhiaro++
#
Loqi rhiaro has 16 karma
#
aaronpk tantek: i can't tell how serious you're being sandro
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro++
#
aaronpk sandro: me either, depends on how big it is
#
KevinMarks rhiaro++
#
Loqi rhiaro has 17 karma
#
Loqi rhiaro has 18 karma
#
aaronpk rhiaro++
#
Loqi rhiaro has 19 karma
#
tantek Action rhiaro: acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent records action 4
#
trackbot Created ACTION-47 - Acquire sqldump of opensocial site database and upload somewhere [on Amy Guy - due 2015-03-17].
#
aaronpk tantek: okay that gets us one step closer to not having everything lost forever
#
aaronpk tantek: i had an update on action 26
#
aaronpk action-26
#
trackbot is looking up action-26.
#
trackbot action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/26
#
AnnB rhiaro is a peach pie
#
aaronpk ... i've started the apparently lenghty process of going through the examples
#
aaronpk ... i'll be upfront, there are some serious issues with them
#
aaronpk ... i've opene a github issue to start to document the classes of issues i'm encountering
#
aaronpk ...while trying to fix the examples
the_frey joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik PR++
#
Loqi PR has 3 karma
#
aaronpk ... my approach is to document the patterns of problems as well as try to at least issue an incremental pull reuqest to fix a few examples at a time
#
aaronpk ... so that they can be reviewed by james and anyone else so that we're heading in a good direction
#
elf-pavlik i do same for RDFa https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/75
#
aaronpk ... i'd rather do it incrementally instead of 900 at once
#
tantek https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/83
#
elf-pavlik and did for Turtle https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/70
#
aaronpk ... if anyone else would like to help out with this task i strongly encourage you to jump in and contribute to the detailsi nt he github issue
tilgovi joined the channel
#
KevinMarks did james make the examples by hand or form the JSON-LD?
#
aaronpk ... because i'd rather make sure we have good analysius of how we are fixing the issues
#
aaronpk AnnB: example sof which?
#
aaronpk tantek: microformats examples in AS 2.0 spec
#
elf-pavlik KevinMarks, JSON-LD normative - microformats just an informative
#
bret AnnB: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
#
AnnB thanks
#
aaronpk ... i want to be very deliberate about fixing them, hopefully so we can acquire more comunity knowledge about how to do html markup for activity streams
#
KevinMarks that wasn't the question, elf-pavlik
#
aaronpk thanks tantek for speaking slowly and clearly
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik KevinMarks, i think by hand from JSON-LD
#
tantek ack aaronpk
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks is there a way to transform the supposedly normative version in LD to the others
#
elf-pavlik q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10#Activity_Streams_2.0
#
aaronpk tantek: next subject AS 2.0
#
elf-pavlik yes
#
aaronpk TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
#
elf-pavlik issue-14
#
trackbot is looking up issue-14.
#
trackbot issue-14 -- as:Link adds a lot of complexity, if we keep it we need to clarify consequences of using it instead of as:Object -- open
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14
#
tantek ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: AS allows for more values to be the object or link, and i found it complicating the spec a lot
#
elf-pavlik action-42
#
trackbot is looking up action-42.
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/42
#
trackbot action-42 -- Pavlik elf to MediaObject - gather options for its social syntax on a wiki page -- due 2015-03-10 -- OPEN
#
aaronpk ... at this moment, the link is used mostly for images, to say for this image this is the media type and sizes
#
aaronpk ... there are a few intentions of the Link
#
aaronpk ... one is to describe the versions of images you can get for a resources
#
aaronpk ... the second one seems to be -----
#
aaronpk ... my main concern is it is expressing the same information in multiple ways
#
aaronpk ... i want to encourage everyone to consider AS Link and we can discuss in the f2f
#
elf-pavlik seperate
#
aaronpk tantek: okay that convers the first action,
#
tantek action-44
#
trackbot is looking up action-44.
#
trackbot action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, Schema.org etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/44
#
elf-pavlik q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tantek ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: currently AS defines its own way of doing collections
#
aaronpk ... we also ahve the LD platform and hydra working with collections
#
aaronpk ... i would like to compare all of them
#
aaronpk ... by f2f I will have a more deep comparison
#
aaronpk ... to clarify how to do collections
#
aaronpk ... collections are very important, i think it wuould be good to give it a good thoguht to implement it correctly
#
aaronpk ... i'd encourage everyone to take al ook at the issue about collections
#
aaronpk ... hopefuly at the f2f we can cdiscuss it
#
aaronpk tantek: you mentioned there is ome discussion about collections in the Hydra group
#
aaronpk ... and you also mentioned implementing.
#
aaronpk ... do you have any references to implemenations of the converstaions
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: i think harry and sandro can point us to some, i wil check about hydra, i don't know about activitystreams
#
aaronpk tantek: okay, specifically the request is for references to implementations, or even better, a public collection or container post
#
elf-pavlik wilco!
#
aaronpk ... that shows the structure of it. so if you can provide a permalink for how those systems publish a collection that will help with the analysis
#
aaronpk ... as a comparison, i can show you that there are folks in the indieweb community posting collections
#
tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/collection#IndieWeb_Examples
#
aaronpk ... here is a list of permalinks of collection posts
#
aaronpk ... so see ifyou can find similar collection post with the other approaches
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: maybe someone from indieweb can add examples from the indiewebcamp list
#
aaronpk tantek: you can simply add that URL and keep it as a reference
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison
#
aaronpk sandro: i'll take a look at what you did there and add a parallel for LDP
#
aaronpk that was sandro right?
#
aaronpk tantek: we have one additional agenda item
#
hhalpin yep!
#
aaronpk TOPIC: participation in mailing list conversations
#
aaronpk tantek: how much time do you need for this issue
#
aaronpk bblfish: i've been told that not everyone is following or commenting on the mailing list
#
hhalpin q+
#
Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks can you use the Wiki?
#
aaronpk ... the qyuestion is where is discussion happening if not the mailing list
#
aaronpk tantek: discussion is certainly happening in the telcon and also in IRC
#
aaronpk ... to provide some background, which has been minuted,
#
Zakim +Sandro.a
#
Zakim -Sandro
#
aaronpk ... when harry reached out to myself and evan to co-chair the WG and ask us to bring our perspectives
#
aaronpk ... specifically for me to bring the indieweb perspective and processes
#
bret i watch the email list, but I dont post very much
#
aaronpk ... i made the point that all the progress we've made was done without a mailing list
#
aaronpk ... part of the culture was to focus on showing by building instead of email discussions
#
elf-pavlik sandro i added more links to https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/44
#
aaronpk ... so I told harry i'd help co-chari but deliberately not participate in the mailing list so that I can provide the specific cultuer you asked us to bring to the WG
#
bret i can bridge anything from the mailing to to IRC, if anyone feels the opposite about IRC
#
elf-pavlik bret++
#
Loqi bret has 55 karma
#
aaronpk bblfish: i think we should ask the group to take a few more ___ I can't followyou around to have a discussion
#
aaronpk ... i dont think this is a reasonable thing to ask or a reasonable way to work
#
aaronpk ... idon't see how else to have a discussion
#
aaronpk ... i'm going to say we start to voteon the mailing list
#
KevinMarks vote on having a mailing list?
#
aaronpk ... i don't know the indieweb, i don't know what they do, i heard the make al ot of noise
#
aaronpk ... i'm not sure they've done anything useful
#
hhalpin q?
#
Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk ... i don't know what they're doing because you're not in a disucssion
#
ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks, host vosts on the mailing list
#
ben_thatmustbeme i think
#
KevinMarks why not sue the issues process?
#
aaronpk ... i can put an example in an email and be clear and have links, what is better? a blog? a tweet?
#
aaronpk tantek: to answer your qeustion, the answer is yes, put it on your personal site
#
KevinMarks s/sue/use/
#
aaronpk ...and by providing that pushback, we have found two groups, people who want to discuss in email, and people who want to take up the challenge and put things on their site
#
aaronpk ... with that focus, that's what we've been able to achieve
#
melvster could I suggest a public mailing list in addition to the closed one this group has ... that worked well with LDP ... and would be more "social"
#
aaronpk ... if you want a quick summary, we have p2p comments, replies, reposts, rsvps, invitations, all working across domains, across implementaions with numerous implementations
#
aaronpk ... that's something i understand no other group has been able to achieve
#
aaronpk bblfish: but now i have to use the indieweb protocol to communicate with you
#
aaronpk tantek: that's a strawman
#
aaronpk ... i just gave you a summary of what you've done
#
ben_thatmustbeme bblfish: IRC is always available with !tell
#
elf-pavlik q?
#
Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk bblfish: so you have an API for pinging and such, so you require i implement opensocial
#
aaronpk tantek: i don't know of anyone who is using opensocial
#
aaronpk bblfish: oh i meant indieweb
#
aaronpk hhalpin: it's clear people prefer different comm channels, I do unsuccessfully try to track email wiki and irc
#
aaronpk ... i know other people try to do all three
#
bret indieweb implementations is not required to participate here. afaict we use: github issues, mailing list, irc and wiki
#
aaronpk ... i underrstnad people have different preferences
#
aaronpk ... i would prefer it if everyone would try to check all 3 or 4
#
aaronpk ... but understand if people don't, we can't force peopel to discuss with each other, or answer all questions
#
aaronpk bblfish: why do we still have a WG then? we should close it down and wait a year
#
aaronpk hhalpin: we have 3 channels and a telcon
#
elf-pavlik bblfish--
#
Loqi bblfish has -1 karma
#
AnnB (bblfish clarified that he misspoke about 'opensocial' .. he meant "IndieWeb")
#
aaronpk ... if you're unhappy with someone you should raise it with that person
#
melvster bblfish++
#
Loqi bblfish has 0 karma
#
tantek elf-pavlik, please let's not -- people
#
elf-pavlik melvster++
#
Loqi melvster has 6 karma
#
elf-pavlik elf-pavlik--
#
Zakim -Lloyd_Fassett
#
ben_thatmustbeme voting of the wiki worked for us on user stories
#
Loqi You can't karma yourself!
#
AnnB q+
#
Zakim sees hhalpin, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud the data shapes WG does vote on the wiki actually :)
#
KevinMarks we did vote on user stories in the wiki
#
aaronpk hhalpin: it soundsl ikeoyuh ave problem with tantek not responding to your emails
#
aaronpk bblfish: no, he doesn't respond to any emails and doesn't even read them
#
KevinMarks Open issues instead
#
Arnaud and we did too on the stories
#
aaronpk ... so this is a problem of communication, he's saying we need to use blogging tools and APIs,
#
bret blogging tool requirement is a miscomunication
#
elf-pavlik AnnB++
#
Loqi too much karma!
#
aaronpk hhalpin: you can talk to him on IRC and on the telcon, i would prefer if he would read emails but we can't force him
#
bret we actually have 4 channels... github issues
#
aaronpk OH MY GOD I CANT TYPE THIS FAST
#
bret arguable the most important... since it actually references the spec directly
#
KevinMarks why not create issues, Henry? https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14
#
bret (4)
#
AdamB might i suggest that if one particular "topic" can't be completed via mailing list that it gets put on the telecon agenda. it will slow the velocity of the team but might be a compromise?
#
aaronpk hhalpin: the WG is about producing standards. we have3 channels, irc email and wiki. all three are available as html
#
aaronpk bblfish: can we have a list of all the people in the WG refuse to use email?
#
hhalpin There are 3 communication channels: 1) IRC 2) wiki 3) mailing list
#
Arnaud aaronpk, I think you can just type "bblfish and hhalpin argue with each other"
#
aaronpk ... and we can list all the times on IRC they are available
#
hhalpin that should be enough.
#
KevinMarks Henry: use https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/
#
AdamB maybe do a issue like KevnMarks suggested and discussed on the phone
#
ben_thatmustbeme IRC has !tell, that was stated over email
#
ben_thatmustbeme it performs async and you can link to specific emails
#
Zakim -bill-looby
#
Arnaud I sympathize with Henry, it is hard to have one conversation that way
#
bret is harry on irc?
#
Arnaud but I don't expect this problem to go away
#
elf-pavlik bret hhalpin
#
tantek q+ to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive conversations.
#
Zakim sees hhalpin, AnnB, tantek on the speaker queue
#
bret elf-pavlik: other harry
#
Zakim -ben_thatmustbeme
#
bret the one talking
#
aaronpk that's bblfish
#
ben_thatmustbeme my phone just dropped out
#
elf-pavlik bret Henry? bblfish
#
AnnB bblfish = Henry Story
#
ben_thatmustbeme I have to go back to work, i'll be on in IRC only
#
bret ah ok cool
#
KevinMarks q+ can we ask Henry to use https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/ instead of email for back adn forth
#
Zakim KevinMarks, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
KevinMarks o_O
#
KevinMarks q+
#
Zakim sees hhalpin, AnnB, tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees hhalpin, AnnB, tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik bblfish++
#
hhalpin However, we cannot force people to use particular messages.
#
KevinMarks IRC is logged and has async
#
tantek ack hhalpin
#
Zakim sees AnnB, tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
tantek hhalpin: we cannot force people to use specific channels
#
bblfish I'd like to know who refuses to use some of the channels
#
tantek ack AnnB
#
Zakim sees tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud sorry, we're way over time now
#
hhalpin s/use particular/specific channels or respond to particular messages
#
aaronpk tantek: i'm going to put an 11:15 hard stop
#
hhalpin We would prefer it if people tried to check multiple channels
#
elf-pavlik Loqi,
#
aaronpk AnnB: the one thing i don't get, i try to log in and follow it,
#
elf-pavlik Loco? ;)
#
aaronpk ... henry, that's one thing these guys have brought to this, a way to put something into IRC and alerts someone to follow up
#
elf-pavlik !tell bblfish 'sup
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
bret !tell AnnB hi AnnB!
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk ... maybe someone can demonstrate this
#
KevinMarks !tell bblfish how many unread eamial
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk ... i understand the indieweb people don't like to use email, so that "!tell somebody something" is valulable
#
aaronpk but I am sympathetic to henry's concern, i don't understand how ... it's hard to have a longer conversation
#
aaronpk ... how do you accomplish that if not in email?
#
bret we have long conversation on IRC
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
tantek ack KevinMarks
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk oops, that should have been minuted
#
aaronpk annb: but I am sympathetic to henry's concern, i don't understand how ... it's hard to have a longer conversation
#
Arnaud from what I understand this is actually part of the plan: limit conversations to short messages
#
elf-pavlik AnnB++
#
aaronpk AnnB: part of it is education for some of us
#
bblfish annb: how is one to have longer detailed conversations on email
#
Loqi bblfish: elf-pavlik left you a message 1 minute ago: 'sup
#
Arnaud based on the belief that email leads to unnecessary long messages
#
Loqi bblfish: KevinMarks left you a message 1 minute ago: how many unread eamial
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
hhalpin In my experience, most developers I know are using a mixture of IRC and git rather than email in open-source projects
#
bret its easier to stay on the same page in IRC.. its really easy on email to totally lose someone after the first paragraph. in irc you can address issues imediately rather than 6 paragraphs in
#
aaronpk tantek: the short answer is that email can lead to unproductive discussions
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (4%), tantek (31%), Ann (27%)
#
hhalpin Along with regular scrum meetings.
#
aaronpk AnnB: we are tryign to learn, but IRC doesn't cut it for anything longer than a couple sentences
#
Arnaud clearly, this has its limits some of us aren't comfortable with
#
aaronpk tantek: there are plenty of places to put longer content than IRC and then put URLs
#
KevinMarks webmentions, Ann
#
melvster Arnaud++
#
aaronpk AnnB: i guess we're going to have to talk about this at the F2F, it's still quite a confusion
#
bret you can write a blogpost into an email list, just paste the URL in
#
ben_thatmustbeme email being very unproductive is one of the reasons things like Slack have seen such an update
#
hhalpin q+
#
Zakim sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik AnnB, can you add it to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
#
ben_thatmustbeme uptake*
#
aaronpk AnnB: I don't quite get it yet
#
aaronpk tantek: i think there's a lot of folks that would happily help
#
tantek ack KevinMarks
#
Zakim sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk KevinMarks: i think what henry wants is a formal backand forth that is acknowledged, so if that's what he wants, use the issue tracker
#
elf-pavlik trackbot++
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
Tsyesika joined the channel
#
aaronpk tantek: we're out of time
#
tantek ack tantek
#
Zakim tantek, you wanted to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive
#
Zakim ... conversations.
#
Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks AnnB: ask in here
#
tantek ack hhalpin
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB how does Issue Tracker work for discussion?
#
Loqi AnnB: bret left you a message 3 minutes ago: hi AnnB!
#
aaronpk hhalpin: we do want to see check all channels, we understand that 3 channels IRC wiki and mailing list, we understand that may be a lot for people
#
AnnB I post a question as an issue? and then someone responds?
#
aaronpk ... nonetheless, we should all try to communicate with each other, there's nothing we can do to force peopel to communicate with each other
#
aaronpk ... weshould assume we're all operating in good faith
#
AnnB that doesn't seem like a discussion
#
elf-pavlik AnnB, please don't use ISSUEs in tracker like that!
#
aaronpk ... in terms of mailing list vs non mailing list, it's a factual note that almost all open source projects have been moving away from mailing list onto IRC and tickets
#
elf-pavlik we need to have formal process to open and close them
#
AnnB I thought that's what Kevin proposed
#
KevinMarks hm
#
AnnB just trying to unders5tand
#
bblfish Most of these tools end up sending e-mails out, so for the moment one ends up with e-mail overflow
#
aaronpk ... it's not surprising that over time we're seeing shifts to other mediums,
#
aaronpk ... as long as it's documented we're fine with that
#
Arnaud gotta end this call
#
elf-pavlik AnnB, let's discuss it next week during face 2 face?
#
KevinMarks actually it looks like the github issues were what I was lookignat
#
aaronpk tantek: thanks for the summary. i'd encourage anyone else who wants to continue this discussion to hang out in IRC
#
Zakim -Arnaud
#
Zakim -bret
#
Zakim -bblfish
#
Zakim -AdamB
#
Zakim -harry
#
Zakim -aaronpk
#
Zakim -elf-pavlik
#
Zakim -Sandro.a
#
melvster hhalpin: why not make it mandatory for chairs to read the mailing list in a WG ... for example, it's mandatory to send regrets via the mailing list when you cant meet ... surely the chair shoudl be reading that?
#
Zakim -tantek
#
KevinMarks this https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
#
Zakim -rhiaro
#
hhalpin Again, we understand that three communications channels may be too much.
#
aaronpk has to run to a meeting
#
melvster cc tantek ^
#
Tsyesika oh is it over?
#
Tsyesika already?
#
Zakim -KevinMarks
#
aaronpk can someone else close out the minutes and publish the logs?
#
aaronpk Tsyesika timezones are hard ;)
#
tantek melvster because it was a condition of becoming a co-chair that we could ignore the mailing list
#
KevinMarks is better than https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/
#
hhalpin But that we can all try to read the various channels and keep abreast, understanding we have diffierent priorities and styles.
#
AnnB I do want to continue the conversation on this. Sorry to be slow, but I do not think we have a good way for a *discussion*
#
tantek based on previous *years* of experience that "social web" mailing lists are mostly irrelevant and unproductive
#
melvster tantek: politics politics :)
#
hhalpin W3C process cannot force anyone to read messages.
#
AnnB but it might be that I just do not understand
#
aaronpk trackbot: end meeting
#
trackbot is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim As of this point the attendees have been +1.971.275.aaaa, AdamB, aaronpk, Arnaud, +1.401.305.aabb, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme, bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, rhiaro,
#
tantek and counter-evidence that indieweb has succeeded WITHOUT a mailing list
#
Zakim ... Sandro, bill-looby, bret, harry, jasnell, +1.408.335.aacc, KevinMarks
#
trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-actions.rdf :
#
RRSAgent ACTION: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [1]
#
tantek so mailing list is just informal water cooler - purely optional
#
RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-32-47
#
RRSAgent ACTION: bblfish to testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [2]
#
AnnB sorry that I am slower than you tantek .. such is life .. dealing with humans is a challeng
#
RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-33-02
#
RRSAgent ACTION: hhalpin to add details to issue-18 [3]
#
RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-43-04
#
tantek melvster - not politics, but rather focus on building
#
RRSAgent ACTION: rhiaro to acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere [4]
#
RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-49-29
#
AnnB challenge
#
AnnB have to go to a meeting .. will read any follow-on later
#
bblfish on which channel?
#
AnnB haha
#
bblfish ok, so I suppose we need an issue to find out for each member of the group what channel's they are following.
#
hhalpin We are on #social.
#
ben_thatmustbeme by the way, we didn't bring up user stories at all today by https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
#
hhalpin So messages in #social, being archived, are part of the discussion.
#
ben_thatmustbeme I took a quick sorting of user stories
#
hhalpin Good point ben, and great work sorting them.
#
bblfish tanktek if I send a message pointing to a web page is that ok?
#
hhalpin I assume we will visit.
#
hhalpin that issue at the F2F
#
bblfish say I point to this page: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Mar/0032.html
#
hhalpin bblfish, sorry, I have a meeting right now. Feel free to discuss with tantek as much as you want in IRC.
#
tantek bblfish: not really as email messages rarely have anything conclusive - they're written as diffs in the middle of other diffs
#
ben_thatmustbeme if people get a chance perhaps take a look throuhg and try to understand objections to some, possibly withdraw some if you are the only +1
#
tantek bblfish: experience has shown that ignoring email lists is a good way to actually be productive with building a social web
#
bret bblfish: i try to communicate specifically with people on the channel they seem to prefer. what do you think about the use of the tracker for things you want specific acknowledgement to and use the channels for discussion with specific people?
#
bblfish that is a message is not a diff
#
bblfish its a web page on the web
#
tantek hence I encourage you to share URLs to posts on your own personal website rather than an email list
#
tantek right, I've stopped paying attention to email list URLs due to poor signal to noise in general
#
tantek that's the point
Guest joined the channel
#
tantek it's also an encourage to *do* social web (on your own site) rather than just email about it
#
tantek s/encourage/encouragement
#
bblfish so you put technology over content. I have seen a lot of web pages with 0 content, even blogs like that
#
tantek my experience is people's blogs tend to be far higher s/n than email lists
#
bblfish tantek, I have been building tools to do that
#
tantek bblfish: then use them
#
Arnaud tantek: I'm really puzzled by the claims that social networks are less noisy than mailing lists
#
tantek rather than just talking about them
#
hhalpin I think the solution of using tracker is pretty good, as its a nice formal way to acknowledge issues across all communicaitons medium
#
tantek Arnaud: no one said social networks e.g. silos
#
bblfish the main problem about blogs currently is spam
#
tantek Arnaud: strawman
#
Arnaud as far as I'm concerned the development of social media has increased the overall noise a great eal
#
Arnaud deal
#
hhalpin Personaly, I myself get 100s of emails a day (not counting spam), so I'd like to decrease that.
#
tantek bblfish: do you have spam on your site? I don't have spam on my site. not a problem.
#
hhalpin I do try to read all the social emails, although some member send far more than others
#
tantek hhalpin++
#
Loqi hhalpin has 4 karma
#
tantek re: decrease
#
bblfish ok so what about discussing the issue https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Mar/0032.html
#
tantek bblfish: I look forward to you sharing URLs to permalinks on your personal site.
#
Arnaud it's great that everyone can have a voice, the problem is that too many people think that means they need to say something :)
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
tantek if you're unable to share a URL to a post on your personal site then I don't believe you "have been building tools to do that".
#
tantek hence we can ignore email lists URLs
#
bblfish but I could just open a wordpress and have a blog site
#
melvster Arnaud++
#
Loqi Arnaud has 4 karma
#
bblfish what would that proove? That I build my own tools?
#
bret bblfish: have you tried pinging evan about it directly?
#
bblfish yes
#
bret in irc?
#
bblfish yes
#
bblfish no response
#
bblfish though it is logged
#
KevinMarks you coudl open a withknown.com site bblfish
#
tantek bblfish: yes WordPress has quite good support on/for the indieweb: https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
#
tantek so that would work too
#
KevinMarks then you'd get automatic webmention support
#
bblfish but that would not proove that I am building my own tools
#
tantek whatever solution you choose is up to you
#
ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud, its more about markup, the default for email is to include the entire previous history, including comments inline, which can be quite messy and difficult to read. I can ignore threads that don't matter to me in social networks, mailing lists force every single message down my throat
#
tantek it's your personal site
#
ben_thatmustbeme 90% of the time, i just archive the emails as they 'look' like they don't apply to me
#
bblfish I have a personal site: http://bblfish.net/
#
Zakim -Ann
#
Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
#
Zakim Attendees were +1.971.275.aaaa, AdamB, aaronpk, Arnaud, +1.401.305.aabb, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme, bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, rhiaro, Sandro, bill-looby, bret, harry,
#
Zakim ... jasnell, +1.408.335.aacc, KevinMarks
#
bblfish you can see I put up some examples and videos about how to build the social web
#
melvster tantek: have you read bblfish's blog in the past, eg when he was at sun and oracle, it's one of the best commentaries on the social web that I've seen ... I think your criticism is a little harsh
#
tantek melvster: can you share permalinks to an example of such best commentary?
#
KevinMarks http://bblfish.net/blog/ says As you may have noticed, I have not been keeping this blog up to date for a while. I am now blogging on blogs.sun.com/bblfish. You will find my latest thoughts there.
#
bblfish here is my sun blog https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/
#
Arnaud tantek: don't you think that the gains you see in avoiding email will go away if everybody switches to irc?
#
KevinMarks 404
#
tantek melvster: in practice no one who is serious about implementing resists requests for posts on their own domain.
#
KevinMarks oh
#
KevinMarks looks like oracle is missing a redirect
#
melvster tantek: e.g. https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/entry/identity_in_the_browser_firefox
#
Arnaud tantek: it seems that the fundamental is info overload and that doesn't go away by changing the medium
#
melvster when oracle took over SUN some links broke
#
bblfish yes, 404's is the problem with blogs like when Oracle takes over sun, they moved to https and did not do the redirects right
#
tantek Arnaud: not true. with indiewebcamp we found that not having an email list was sufficient to be more productive
#
Arnaud tantek: you may limit the size of the messages a bit but as we see with twitter it only leads to people posting more
#
tantek melvster: good lesson there in owning your data on *your own domain*
#
Arnaud and you end up with the same overload
#
KevinMarks you could fix the link on http://bblfish.net/blog/page11.html#t2008_07_09.10_37_08_976
#
Arnaud I sure can't keep up with twitter
#
bblfish that's part of why at the W3C e-mail is used. We have the guarantee that the messages are going to stay around for a long time.
#
bblfish In fact this is my whole use case for the social web
#
AdamB and that everyone else can easily see them
#
KevinMarks it lokms like our own site is abandoned as it redirects me to a 404 on a dead silo
#
KevinMarks s/ lokms like our/ looks like your/
Guest joined the channel
#
bblfish this is exactly the use case for the Social Web
#
KevinMarks indeed - you can fix your own domain
#
KevinMarks you can't fix your employers
#
bblfish you can loose your own domain
#
melvster FYI: Timbl doing an AMA on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ykyht/i_am_sir_tim_bernerslee_inventor_of_the_web_join/
#
melvster right now
#
KevinMarks oh, ex-employers: https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/
almereyda joined the channel
#
KevinMarks bblfish: do you not have postign rights at https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/entry/last_days_at_sun_microsystems any more?
#
bblfish no more
#
KevinMarks 'cos that post redirects back to bblfish.net
#
KevinMarks "I will be moving my blog over to http://bblfish.net/ as soon as I get the right software set up there. You can follow me on twitter or identica for updates."
#
bblfish I do have bblfish.net yes
#
KevinMarks right, but it says to go to sun, which 404s
#
bblfish ah need to change that
#
KevinMarks when I find the oracle one, ti says to go to bblfish.net
#
bblfish I am building the tools to replace that blog
#
melvster classic: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ykyht/i_am_sir_tim_bernerslee_inventor_of_the_web_join/cpahw1s
#
KevinMarks you could host static files in the mean time
#
bblfish yes, there is a blog post on sun, that says its the last post
#
KevinMarks right, so we have a redirect loop
#
bblfish yes, I am building the tools to do this.
#
bblfish using curl?
#
KevinMarks no, in meaning
#
KevinMarks in prose
#
bblfish well you're not a robot, so you can work that one out
#
KevinMarks no, I can't
#
bblfish ah too bad
#
KevinMarks "As you may have noticed, I have not been keeping this blog up to date for a while. I am now blogging on blogs.sun.com/bblfish. You will find my latest thoughts there."
#
KevinMarks [404]
#
KevinMarks "I will be moving my blog over to http://bblfish.net/ as soon as I get the right software set up there. You can follow me on twitter or identica for updates."
#
bblfish yes, I am not using either
#
bblfish I am building the tools to agregate them back on my own server
#
KevinMarks indieweb people would love to chat to you about that
#
KevinMarks it's kind of what we do
#
bblfish https://github.com/read-write-web/wiki/wiki
#
KevinMarks we've found hosting our own sites is a good way to make progress
#
bblfish yes, the problem is that in the use cases scenarios some people are assuming that some use cases are out of bounds, because they don't know what can be done
#
KevinMarks the best answer to that si to do it
#
bblfish I am
#
bblfish I helped James Gosling write a blog client in 2004
#
bblfish I suppose that was before you were born KevinMarks
#
KevinMarks good, let me know when there's an update to bblfish.net
#
KevinMarks I was indexing thousands of blogs at technorati then
#
KevinMarks maybe you pinged us
#
bblfish what happened to Technorati?
#
KevinMarks that's a long story
#
bblfish ah it's probably got swamped by Facebook
#
KevinMarks more by google
#
bblfish because they did one thing right: access control
#
KevinMarks nope
#
bblfish Facebook is just a centralised blog engine with access control
#
KevinMarks monetising technorati was hard
#
bblfish friends of friend access control and such
#
KevinMarks eventually they found a way that din't involve indexing blogs
#
KevinMarks (I had left by then)
#
melvster hate to break it to you, but owning your own home page and requiring people to do that is also centralized ...
#
KevinMarks so is the web, by that argument
#
bblfish ? melvster
#
KevinMarks he means DNS
#
bblfish the fact is Facebook swamped Blogging
the_frey joined the channel
#
bblfish and you need to understand why that happened
#
KevinMarks no, twitter did
#
melvster bblfish: owning your home page is nice, and i do it, but decentraliztion is about users being able to post anything anywhere, that's what the web is about ... it's like a piece of paper, when the paper confines or controls the content, you've lost decentralization ...
#
bblfish I did give a talk on that at the French ministry of culture
#
KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/11/bloggings-not-dead-its-becoming-like.html
#
bblfish here is the video http://www.dailymotion.com/video/kDZT4znnt2ms0S8e299
#
melvster this is generally regarded as the major short coming of the indieweb movement
#
KevinMarks [citation needed]
#
bblfish melvster I am all for people having their domain
#
bblfish so I am with KevinMarks on that
#
KevinMarks melvster: look up POSSE and PESOS
#
bblfish the problem here is that we have too many channels of communication
#
bblfish anyway, we're going to have to spend a few weeks I suppose working on how we communicate
#
KevinMarks no, the problem is that some of them are hard to get access to and are fragile
#
KevinMarks unliek the web
#
KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-antifragility-of-web.html
#
melvster KevinMarks: thks
#
bblfish ok, got to go.
#
KevinMarks by henry
#
melvster KevinMarks: the trick to decentralization is to make the content and the container independent
#
melvster it's also something bblfish solved quite well with webid
#
melvster and timbl before him
#
KevinMarks google solved it better
#
KevinMarks search works better than urls
#
KevinMarks see http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html
#
melvster in a way
#
melvster but the www isnt predicated on search it's predicated on URIs
#
melvster there's a battle in progress tho
#
bret melvster: i've only seen that work for content addressability ie bittorrent dht and now http://ipfs.io/
#
bret still, all the hashes get distributed from a URL 99% of the time
#
KevinMarks including magnet URLs?
stevenroose joined the channel
#
aaronpk bblfish: couldn't help but notice your latest blog post says you are now blogging at http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/ which unfortunately is 404 now
#
bblfish yes, I can fix that
#
bblfish will do that right away
#
aaronpk is catching up on IRC logs
#
aaronpk ah I see that has already been addressed :) sorry
jaywink joined the channel
#
Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Collection Comparison]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82759&oldid=82719
#
aaronpk rhiaro: if you do manage to get the DB dump of opensocial and restore to a drupal install, I have a tool that can flatten it to a pile of HTML files
#
aaronpk I spent some time building this to archive some other dynamic sites that don't need to be dynamic anymore
#
rhiaro oh, thanks aaronpk
#
aaronpk and NOBODY SAY WGET IS GOOD ENOUGH
#
rhiaro My first instinct is to try to avoid having to set up drupal at all
#
aaronpk you wouldn't believe how many times i heard that while making this
#
rhiaro I have no idea what a drupal db structure looks like, but I'm hoping I can just convert it into something else with a script...
#
rhiaro I might be naive/optimistic..
#
rhiaro I've sent an email to ask for the dump, so now I wait..
#
aaronpk my instinct is that it'll be more trouble to do that than to just set up drupal again
#
aaronpk I just did that with a wordpress site recently
#
rhiaro You might be right.
#
aaronpk https://github.com/esripdx/Spiderpig
#
rhiaro If I manage to carve out some free time before I get it, I might see if I can get hold of a drupal dump and experiment
#
rhiaro I don't *have* any free time, and volunteering to do this was probably a bad idea, but nobody else seemed to and it would be a shame if all that stuff got lost... and maybe I'll learn about open social more in the process
#
aaronpk cool, I am also interested in helping fwiw
#
rhiaro thanks!
#
rhiaro It seems like potentially fun procrastination, at any rate
#
aaronpk we had an old forum and also a rails app that were getting spammed, so I turned them into HTML and now they can't be spammed anymore :)
#
rhiaro Right now I'm procrastinating by writing a blog post about various pros and cons of different communications mechanisms
#
aaronpk and you can't even tell the difference :-) http://community.geoloqi.com/
#
rhiaro nice
#
melvster so, opensocial is officially dead? I remember with it first started ...
#
melvster or (unofficially) ?
melvster joined the channel
#
bblfish ok, I have posted a new issue https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/19
#
bblfish I suppose those people who don't read the list will only discover about this issue next week
#
bblfish but wait! I suppose I should tweet it if I want to reach tantek
#
melvster bblfish++
#
Loqi bblfish has 1 karma
#
melvster bblfish tantek hhalpin: do we have the minutes of the conversation where tantek agreed to become chair on condition of not reading the email list, im interested in the context and decision making process
#
bblfish The issue 19 has a pointer to the minutes
#
melvster bblfish: thanks
#
bblfish I am not sure if that was logged, but I think a few people heard it
#
melvster bblfish: great questions
#
Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
melvster 'timbl Maybe 2.0 = silos of user-generated content and 3.0 = breaking out of those silos and user-controlled data' -- this is what I mean by decentralization
#
bblfish +1 melvster
#
bblfish +1
#
melvster bblfish: you'll like this one "HTTP+TLS is important. We need to review the ways by which our systems trust particular certs. We need to use client cert more. We need to be able to set up family certs and so on without huge cost, or relying on the external PKI. We should be able to make out own PKI. By default, we should store IoT data in the house and analyze it within the house without having to go through an untrusted cloud system just to get function
#
melvster ality. The keys we use for things like TLS, GPG, SSH should be interoperable"
#
bblfish where?
#
melvster timbl just did a reddit AMA
#
melvster https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2ykyht/i_am_sir_tim_bernerslee_inventor_of_the_web_join/
#
melvster also note: "Can it it be fast enough" depends on what "it" is and may be a PhD project. In the crosscloud project at CSAIL we are trying to break the link between apps and data, so you can use any app and tell it where to store the data where you control the data. Data stores become commodities. That could be a first step to moving the data into more of a peer-peer system without conventional servers at all.
#
ben_thatmustbeme bblfish, regarding wiki page edits, notifications are sent in IRC, also wiki can be set to email you when any watched pages are updated
#
ben_thatmustbeme i feel like i missed a user story for getting a person's preferred communication method
#
ben_thatmustbeme should I DM on twitter, AIM, text, etc
#
KevinMarks !tell bblfish when the wiki is updated loqi mentions it in this irc
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme I could use weights vocab with my contact points
#
elf-pavlik $ curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ --insecure -H "Accept: application/ld+json" | grep contactPoint
#
elf-pavlik http://smiy.sourceforge.net/wi/spec/weightedinterests.html#sec-preferences-example
#
ben_thatmustbeme we had started to play with that with indieweb contacts, but we were doing it just by order
#
ben_thatmustbeme or at least I was
#
ben_thatmustbeme i don't think anyone implemented it yet
#
ben_thatmustbeme once i have my contacts list really up and going, which is what I have been working toward, that should get more interesting
#
elf-pavlik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_negotiation uses 'weights' not order ...
#
elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, how do you page your contacts list?
#
elf-pavlik please add it to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison
#
ben_thatmustbeme currently its only as a whitelist for webmention+Vouch negotiation
#
ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/whitelist
#
ben_thatmustbeme once I have it as an actual contacts list I'll post an example up there.
#
elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme++
#
Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 49 karma
#
elf-pavlik action-44
#
trackbot is looking up action-44.
#
trackbot action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, Schema.org etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/44
bblfish joined the channel
#
bblfish ben_thatmustbeme: but this irc is not always logged
#
Loqi bblfish: KevinMarks left you a message 11 minutes ago: when the wiki is updated loqi mentions it in this irc
#
ben_thatmustbeme Loqi is only out temporarily with system outages, 99% of the time, it is
#
bblfish ah ok, but then I may miss the context of the message
#
elf-pavlik Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next (Face 2 Face) meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today
#
bblfish and context is very important part of meaning
#
AnnB true .. but then could you go back in the log and read the context?
#
elf-pavlik bblfish, you can search on the indieweb irc log page
#
AnnB now that you're alerted?
#
elf-pavlik http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-10
#
AnnB (I just happened to have been reading the whole log to this point, when that popped up)
#
bblfish but this channel is not always logged is it?
#
bblfish I had to start the logger previously
#
AnnB actually, I believe it is, via "loqi"
#
elf-pavlik bblfish, not by RRSagent but Loqi logs it always
#
elf-pavlik 99% always
#
AnnB check this out, bblfish: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-10
#
ben_thatmustbeme yes, aside from rare system outages, which aaronpk usually tries to backfill from someone else's log if it does go out
#
AnnB very handy
#
AnnB between using the log, and the tell!<someone> <something> .. it's pretty good
#
AnnB BUT still not adequate for discussion, IMO
#
AnnB I mean real discussion
#
ben_thatmustbeme better logged that in person discussions though
#
AnnB that's what I don't get ... how the IndieWeb folks discuss something
#
AnnB true on that
#
ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, what don't you understand
#
bblfish AnnB I wrote up a set of questions regarding this issue https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/19
#
ben_thatmustbeme ?
#
AnnB is wishing ben_thatmustbeme had a shorter nick .... very clever, but too much to type out
#
elf-pavlik AnnB, they also use wiki e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Why_is_the_IndieAuth_verification_response_form-encoded_instead_of_JSON
#
AnnB cool
#
elf-pavlik issue-19
#
trackbot issue-19 -- WG communication channel explosion -- raised
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/19
#
trackbot is looking up issue-19.
#
AnnB Ben, how you discuss stuff
#
ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, sorry, I try to use my URL on everything, if I'm active in the room and you aren't trying to highlight my screen you can just use Ben
#
ben_thatmustbeme :P
#
AnnB right now, I have to get some lunch before I croak ... then I'll read those links
#
AnnB thanks on that
#
AnnB Ben
#
AnnB :-)
#
AnnB steps away in search of food
#
elf-pavlik Bon Appétit AnnB
#
AnnB merci elf
#
aaronpk has been summoned
#
bblfish a plus tard
#
ben_thatmustbeme We tend to discuss everything on IRC with people who are interested. There is usually someone interested in the topic you wish to discuss, once some concensus comes out of the discussion we try to capture that info on the wiki in a brainstorming page
#
AnnB here's an invention needed ... bandaids that are touch sensitive for devices
#
aaronpk AnnB: most IRC clients support tab-complete of nicks, for example I typed "an[tab]" to type your name
#
ben_thatmustbeme if not, you make headway in your own implementation of it, and then show off to get feedback
#
AnnB I have a bandaid on my thumb ... cannot type on my phone or ipad with that finger
#
aaronpk and for ben_thatmustbeme it's "be[tab]"
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, depends on client, but yeah
#
AnnB oh, that's handy .. I'm only using the W3Cs cgi interface, because I'm on my Boeing laptop onto which I cannot load sw
#
aaronpk yes it's a client feature, but that explains how some of us can type ben_thatmustbeme so quickly :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme wonders if there are web irc clients that have tab completion support like that
#
aaronpk rhiaro: i'm willing to host the opensocial.org site on the server that indiewebcamp stuff is on once it's turned into static HTML
harry joined the channel
#
aaronpk so just let me know when you hear back from greg @ opensocial
shepazu joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk++
#
Loqi aaronpk has 731 karma
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: aren't contact, friends, connections what makes the social web "social"?
#
melvster s/contact/contacts
#
melvster imho this was mark zuckerbergs insight when he started facebook
#
melvster previously there was myspace and other systems which were a mass of pages, but facebook somehow made it more "social"
#
bblfish Oh how rude: from IndieWebCamp slack channel Loqi elf-pavlik: tantek left you a message on 3/9 at 5:53pm: I'll check #social messages before the telcon. When did you become Henry's secretary? And perhaps you can encourage him to write his opinions as blog posts on his own personal site. I'm still preferring to focus on fixing microformats examples in AS. "http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-10/line/1426023297745
#
melvster be nice :)
#
melvster didnt know there was a slack instance
#
melvster elf-pavlik: good news, michielbdejong has said he will consider running GOLD in a docker instance, on indie hosters
#
melvster so then people can be both indie web and linked data citizens
#
elf-pavlik melvster++
#
Loqi melvster has 7 karma
#
elf-pavlik tantek, secretary as in https://github.com/seebi/WebID-Delegation-paper/commit/4fe62e9ea3ea65ca37b6a40e3463b3cfdc63444b#diff-b3960d455ac4750fdab9cbcdb313c1baR15 ?
#
melvster lol
#
melvster 'the one who keeps secrets'
#
bblfish :-)
#
elf-pavlik needs to catch some sleep
#
elf-pavlik bblfish++
#
Loqi bblfish has 2 karma
#
melvster elf-pavlik: btw that's the use case we still havent solved yet, and I was hoping opensocial would be able to give us
#
melvster how do we add bots to the social web
#
melvster im having this very problem right now
#
melvster have to give the bot my password and it posts as me
#
bblfish ah yes, I saw your mail
#
elf-pavlik we'll sort it out... BTW IndieAuth <3 WebID (almost) https://indiecert.net/welcome
#
bblfish yes, check out a paper we had on that
#
bblfish https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebID/Authorization_Delegation
#
bblfish this is the paper I wrote http://bblfish.net/tmp/2012/08/05/WebID_Delegation.pdf
#
melvster elf-pavlik: I had a chat with fkooman about it, that's a nice system but it relies on indiecert.net ... id prefer a system (like webid) without inserting any *specific* domain
#
bblfish Philipp Frischmuth1, Michael Martin1, and Sören Auer1
#
bblfish with sebastian tramp, Andrei Sambra,
#
melvster bblfish: yeah but how many of those names have web identities (small w small i)?
#
melvster less than half id say
#
bblfish check the http://webid.info/spec web identity interoparability initial doc to see how one can tie these systems together
#
elf-pavlik bblfish, I've read it after meeting seebi in Leipzig
#
elf-pavlik now really bed time!
#
elf-pavlik gnight o/
#
bblfish rebooting
bblfish, the_frey and bblfish_ joined the channel
#
melvster aaronpk: is there any chance you could add linked data to your #social logs?
#
melvster bblfish: did you see that chromium has user management and API now? http://melvin.rww.io/workspace/uploads/chromeusers.png
#
melvster i hope mozilla could do that one day
#
melvster would be sooooo nice to have identity in the browser
#
bblfish_ what does that do?
#
bblfish_ ah that's a png
#
bblfish_ I know you can have different pngs
AdamB joined the channel
#
melvster bblfish_: there's an identity API too
#
melvster you can set your name
#
melvster log in etc.
#
melvster probably needs some work tho
AdamB and AnnB joined the channel
#
AnnB just read the sort of recent log ..
#
AnnB what's the Slack instance? for this group?
#
AnnB is that yet another place people are working on this stuff?
#
AnnB (I only just learned about Slack recently, and am very intrigued .. .but cannot use it via Boeing; blocked at firewall)
#
melvster AnnB: ive started writing an open source version ... but still very early stages
#
melvster of slack that is
#
bblfish_ AnnB: slack is yet another tool that people use that is like IRC. It is proprietary on top of it. To enter the indieweb slack channel you apparently got to go through a bunch of complex hoops...
harry joined the channel
#
bblfish_ There is no slack instance for this group.
#
melvster AnnB: my version will allow you to store your data where you want for as long as you want, for free ... and will be w3c standards compliant
#
bblfish_ AnnB, did you see the list of tools used by OuiShare ? https://trello.com/b/YWRVp9Cu/ouisharetools
#
bblfish_ that's what channel explosion is about
#
AnnB thanks for those explanations, you guys
#
AnnB bblfish, I did not look at that trello link yet; have to run
#
melvster lol np
#
melvster slack isnt very webby
#
melvster but it's a nice UI, and it's done a lot of integrations
#
AnnB but I know all about 'channel explosion' and which tool to use when
#
bblfish melvster: can you see that trello? One always has problems with Access Control on these sites
#
AnnB we've got it in spades .. altho of course we use email extensively
#
melvster bblfish: no, requires login
#
bblfish argh
#
bblfish AnnB, do you have a list of channels you use ? I think that would make a great case for what problems we need to solve
#
AnnB I'm very keen to figure out the best ways to collaborate
#
bblfish I mean boing uses
#
AnnB I'd be happy to do that .. later
#
bblfish Boeing
#
bblfish :-)
#
AnnB won't be a surprise .. fairly old school
#
melvster AnnB: lots of people are switching to solutions like slack, they say it reduces email, but in a large corp, email wont go away fast
#
bblfish it's not surprise effect I am looking for. Just data, real data
#
melvster however slack is pay, proprietary, and not w3c standards compliant
#
bblfish funny I can see https://trello.com/b/YWRVp9Cu/ouisharetools without being logged in
#
bblfish let me try in anonymous mode
#
bblfish yeah. I have no problem seeing it in incognito mode https://trello.com/b/YWRVp9Cu/ouisharetools
#
bblfish in chrome
#
AnnB I can see the top page ... didn't try anything below that
#
melvster bblfish: stample? :)
#
bblfish I no longer work there. They moved on to do another channel to contribute to the explosion. Everyone wants to become the next Facebook
#
melvster true
#
AnnB ciao
#
melvster well i dont
#
melvster im happy to work with facebook
#
melvster they implemented webid after all
#
bblfish no, we did not get round to it
#
bblfish ah you mean read-write-web
#
melvster no i mean webid
#
bblfish that's still open source
#
melvster hmm we may be having cross conversations
#
bblfish https://github.com/read-write-web/wiki/wiki
#
melvster yes, seen it
#
bblfish mhh
#
bblfish any idea how I can make a google docs publically visible?
#
bblfish https://docs.google.com/a/bblfish.net/document/d/1SgoSgeG-ohdzc8G6HLdvQ6tyevaxAE1ISA9H6ZRvoB4
#
melvster sorry now
#
melvster no
#
melvster wow, there's not a single open source web chat system out there : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_instant_messaging_clients
#
melvster quite amazing
#
melvster what a huge gap in the market
#
bblfish found it https://docs.google.com/a/bblfish.net/document/d/1SgoSgeG-ohdzc8G6HLdvQ6tyevaxAE1ISA9H6ZRvoB4/pub
#
melvster 'You need permission to access this published document.'
#
bblfish argh
#
bblfish I don't know why it does this
#
melvster bblfish: did you see my webid instant messanger? http://melvin.rww.io/workspace/uploads/webidscreenshot.png
#
bblfish nice. I see you put the names of people up now :-
#
bblfish :-)
#
melvster seems people prefer it to URIs
#
melvster bblfish: http://webid.im/
#
bblfish ah here it is http://bblfish.net/tmp/2015/03/10/OuiSharetechnicalcomplexity.html