#social 2015-08-25

2015-08-25 UTC
cdchapman, tantek_, bblfish, jasnell, almereyda, tilgovi, tantek, pfefferle, bblfish_, the_frey, the_frey_ and elf-pavlik joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro_, what do you think about this modeling of like with direct and qualified relation? https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/blob/master/verb/likes/README.md
pfefferle, bblfish, jasnell and rhiaro joined the channel
tantek and pfefferle joined the channel
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rhiaro
elf-pavlik: Google voice works for me, can you use that?
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rhiaro
Btw will reply about the likes/relations stuff soon..
elf-pavlik, jasnell, AnnB, dwhly, tilgovi and tantek joined the channel
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AnnB
slaps tsyesika around a bit with a large fishbot
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Loqi
AnnB: KevinMarks left you a message on 8/20 at 7:51pm: if you don't blog, do you tweet? Because there is wirign to make tweet replies show up as comments too http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-08-20/line/1440125508841
elf-pavlik and eprodrom joined the channel
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eprodrom
Hello everyone
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom hi
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom, sandro: i will need help from someone to dial +34 land line (i would prefer send full number on non logged channel)
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elf-pavlik
afk ~5min
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AnnB
Hi Evan!
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eprodrom
So, I forget the URL of the tool to turn IRC logs into wiki text
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AnnB
is that the tool that Amy put up?
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AnnB
using Pandocticon?
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rhiaro
there's a perl scribe script
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AnnB
but, it just failed when I just tried it
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rhiaro
that does irc->html
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AnnB
oh ..
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rhiaro
and pandoc.amy.gy does html->mediawiki
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rhiaro
I killed my server this morning
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AnnB
aha
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rhiaro
That'll be back in a couple of hours hopefully
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elf-pavlik
someone who can call back from WebEx to +34 land line please let me know and i'll send full number on private channel :)
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elf-pavlik
hello AnnB & rhiaro :)
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik: sorry, I have no idea how to do that
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elf-pavlik
rswick++
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Loqi
rswick has 1 karma
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tantek
"You are the first person to join the meeting, Please standby"
csarven joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
tantek, can you see if you can dial out? i can send you full nr on private channel if you can :)
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elf-pavlik
hi csarven
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sandro
is on call with Tantek
jasnell joined the channel
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sandro
+Sandro
cwebber2 joined the channel
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sandro
+Tantek
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tantek
present+ tantek
RRSAgent joined the channel
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eprodrom
present+ eprodrom
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sandro
+Sandro
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tantek
present+ tantek
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rhiaro
elf-pavlik: I replied to your email about liking things, finally :)
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rhiaro
runs to find a room and headphones
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 153 karma
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eprodrom
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 25 August 2015
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Arnaud
present+ Arnaud
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csarven
present+ csarven
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elf-pavlik
sandro could you diall out to +34 number? i can send it on private chan ...
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AnnB
present+ Ann
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eprodrom
present+ eprodrom
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cwebber2
present! cwebber2
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sandro
I'll try, Elf
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eprodrom
scribe?
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elf-pavlik
sandro++
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Loqi
sandro has 21 karma
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eprodrom
tsyesika, problems connecting?
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AnnB
I need to step away briefly; brb
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tsyesika
eprodrom: trying now, sorry was a little delayed
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cwebber2
I can scribe
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ben_thatmustbeme
present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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eprodrom
scribenick: cwebber2
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jasnell
present+ jasnell
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cwebber2
eprodrom: thanks everyone for coming, I believe when we laid this out this will be the last of our summer meetings
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wilkie
present+ wilkie
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rhiaro
present+ rhiaro
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so we may have one more skipped meeting next week, then back on regular schedule
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cwebber2
tantek: that's what I have too
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cwebber2
eprodrom: first order of business, always nice and easy, is to review the minutes from the last meeting
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eprodrom
TOPIC: approve minutes of Aug 11 2015
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cwebber2
eprodrom: which was two weeks ago
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cwebber2
eprodrom: just puttin' that topic in there
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ben_thatmustbeme
+1 to approve
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: approve minutes of Aug 11 2015
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tantek
(just skimmed)
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eprodrom
+1
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elf-pavlik
i didn't see them on wiki still 15min ago
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cwebber2
eprodrom: these got posted late, just a few minutes ago, but if you can review...
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: approve minutes of Aug 11 2015
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cwebber2
eprodrom: barring any other votes, I will mark this as resolved
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csarven
0 Not happy, but whatever.. lets see whatever is promised.
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elf-pavlik
+0 i'll just trust the crew :)
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cwebber2
eprodrom: csarven, are you on the line? I'm not sure what you're saying
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cwebber2
csarven: yes, so I'll go along with the decision, I'm just not happy with how it turned out
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cwebber2
eprodrom: sounds good
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AnnB
I'm back
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elf-pavlik
sandro still tries to call out to +34 landline ...
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I understand, is that because of how it went through or the late minutes? if at a 0 I'm not going to continue working on that
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so let's move on
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cwebber2
eprodrom: another thing to discuss is the face to face
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eprodrom
TOPIC: F2F Sapporo
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cwebber2
eprodrom: registration did open for TPAC in the last week or so
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if you do go, you need to register, helps to get everyone on there so we know who will be participating there
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I have regrets, we do have some remote participants
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eprodrom
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if you will be participating remotely, that will help too
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rhiaro
really wants to go to japan, come on everyone!
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cwebber2
sandro: I think I'm not going, I'm hesitant to buy a ticket until critical mass, but if we all do that it doesn't work
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cwebber2
sandro: so talking I said I'd go if enough others go
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cwebber2
sandro: so if you're waiting for critical mass, ok
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elf-pavlik
sandro++
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Loqi
sandro has 22 karma
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cwebber2
sandro: if you're waiting for travel approval, or if saying your deadline, maybe say that there
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cwebber2
sandro: I want people to buy tickets if there's not a meeting
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cwebber2
eprodrom: is there a possibility we won't have a meeting?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: is there a critical mass we need to have, maybe 10 participants and local?
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AnnB
wondering if @tsyesika was able to get on the audio?
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elf-pavlik
wseltzer hi :) could you maybe help us with dialing out to +34 landline? m> https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ#How_do_I_get_a_callback_if_I_can.27t_run_a_WebEx_client.3F
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AnnB
ditto @elf?
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elf-pavlik
thanks AnnB++
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cwebber2
sandro: remote people, it can be really hard to be up for all those hours
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cwebber2
sandro: in the boring you can't hear things kind of way
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cwebber2
Arnaud: let's be clear, there are 5 people listed, there may be 3 if not more people
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cwebber2
Arnaud: if that's the case it might not be worth having
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csarven
Is there a min count or certain individuals/roles must be present?
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cwebber2
Arnaud: it would be helpful if people would indicate
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jasnell
I will not be attending in person. Can attend remotely.
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cwebber2
Arnaud: we should make this a 2 face commit thing
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AnnB
FYI, for me, flying from Seattle, with one night in Tokyo each direction, I estimate this trip would cost $3700 total (airfare, food, hotel, registration ...)
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tantek
s/face/phase
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eprodrom
s/2 face/2-phase/
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cwebber2
Arnaud: so if we need critical mass, we can confirm then everyone buys tickets
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csarven
jasnell update the wiki please so that it is tracked.
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cwebber2
eprodrom: let's see if there's a something we can introduce to get number of commitments by a particular date
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cwebber2
eprodrom: would 6 weeks be a reasonable time commitment?
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tantek
eprodrom: maybe by the next telcon?
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tantek
yes we're ~9 weeks out
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cwebber2
sandro: my formal deadline is 4 weeks
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cwebber2
sandro: that was a please not a you must(?)
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elf-pavlik
looks like we don't have host code needed for dialing out :'(
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cwebber2
eprodrom: that's a pretty strong date
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elf-pavlik
TODO elf - help with finding it before next meeting in 2 weeks
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cwebber2
Arnaud: september 8th seems like reasonable deadline
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cwebber2
AnnB: tsyesika and elf-pavlik are waiting to dial in
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cwebber2
(???): I was never gven the host code
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elf-pavlik
!tell harry we need host code to diall out from WebEx, could you please share it with sandro and chairs? thx! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-08-25/line/1440522820835
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tsyesika
present+ tsyesika
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AnnB
s/(???)/Sandro: /
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cwebber2
tantek: do we need a critical mass or do this in 2 weeks
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cwebber2
cwebber2: who's talking?
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elf-pavlik
please don't worry we can discuss raised by me AS2.0 topics in 2 weeks
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cwebber2
sandro: could everyone please update saying what their status is doing an update to the wiki
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cwebber2
eprodrom: please do update to the wiki by end of meeting
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tantek
sandro then evan
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cwebber2
eprodrom: in sep 8 meeting we'll make a decision go / no go
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AnnB
@tsyesika, are you on the call?
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tsyesika
AnnB: i am
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AnnB
oh good
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cwebber2
eprodrom: any fixed goals for the face to face?
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cwebber2
tantek: we should at least collect agenda proposals
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cwebber2
AnnB: seems like there was good synergy at paris meeting with tech communities presenting how they were doing things
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cwebber2
sandro: the whiteboard exercise was great
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cwebber2
tantek: how do we keep that momentum going forward is one way to look at the opportunity of the next F2f
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cwebber2
tantek: a hackathon before and afterward may be the way to do it
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Loqi
hackathon has 1 karma
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I added an agenda section to the wiki page
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/tantek/sandro
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cwebber2
cwebber2: arg :)
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AnnB
no worries, cwebber2
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AnnB
hard to tell
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'll take an action personally to add items to agenda, see how they go from there
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cwebber2
eprodrom: hopefully that will push us on participation
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to move forward on activitystreams
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eprodrom
TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
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cwebber2
eprodrom: would like to take a moment to ask jasnell to give us an update on where we are. last meeting I think we tried to discuss what possibilities there were to go forward toward a CR
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think the challenge was closing issues on github
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cwebber2
jasnell: the primary outstanding PR right now on github is refactoring of the paging model
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cwebber2
jasnell: status of the ?? group is using the collection model as part of their api
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cwebber2
what group?
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cwebber2
jasnell: in response to that feedback I got a revised version of the model, seprating collection from individual page
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cwebber2
jasnell: PR is sitting out there right now for 3 weeks, doesn't appear to have significant review
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cwebber2
jasnell: but if folks could take a look at it...
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cwebber2
jasnell: the other open PR there is the example changes that I still need to review
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so the PR with the collection changes, should we or could we discuss now? is that a good use of time?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: might move us a bit forward...
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if people are ok with doing that, maybe what we can do is come to a conclusion in-meeting
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cwebber2
eprodrom: and adopt/pull the PR?
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jasnell
sorry, didn't see that eprodrom had already posted
almereyda joined the channel
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cwebber2
eprodrom: does that sound like a good way to do our time? esp if moving AS 2.0 forward, might be a good way to use next 10/15 minutes
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cwebber2
jasnell: can give a quick rundown
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cwebber2
eprodrom: sounds great
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cwebber2
jasnell: original paging model for AS2 was have collection object, collection object had array of items
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cwebber2
jasnell: had subset of collections in items
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cwebber2
jasnell: so collection object might have 10 items of next/previous items
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cwebber2
jasnell: challenge with that is the way it was defined conflated logical collection with page which they aren't
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cwebber2
jasnell: from a basic json point of view that's ok but
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cwebber2
jasnell: from a rdf point of view, not ok
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cwebber2
jasnell: we've had that feedback before but at the time chose not to persue changes
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cwebber2
jasnell: the edit at this point introduces a few new concepts
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cwebber2
jasnell: including collection page
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cwebber2
jasnell: nad now an ordered collection page variant
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cwebber2
jasnell: can still have individual, but if you want subsets, can use collection page
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elf-pavlik
relevant issue from Hydra CG discussed over a year ago https://github.com/HydraCG/Specifications/issues/42
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cwebber2
jasnell: to view changes, check out branch, called revfactor-paging
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cwebber2
jasnell: you can view changes in browser, they are fairly extensive
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Zakim
sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack Arnaud
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
jasnell: not a huge difference, but they are moved and clarified down to the collection page level
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cwebber2
Arnaud: a comment, I'm not against current proposal but want to gie you history on LDP paging, we originally started with something similar
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cwebber2
Arnaud: Where all paging mechanism was done in content
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cwebber2
Arnaud: but we got pushback with timbl by saying you're polluting content
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cwebber2
Arnaud: so we moved all the paging stuff to HTTP headers
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elf-pavlik
Arnaud++ timbl++
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Loqi
Arnaud has 24 karma
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cwebber2
jasnell: and that approach involves ??? headers
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cwebber2
jasnell: like link rel previous rel next kind of thing
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eprodrom
HTTP
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cwebber2
Arnaud: yes
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if you don't mind I'd like to describe AS 1.0 collections, allllmost the same as what we're describing
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elf-pavlik
relevant discussion to 'polluting content' in Hydra CG list https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hydra/2015Aug/0037.html
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cwebber2
eprodrom: this seems a huuuge step forward in clarity, making it easier for producers/consumers to manage
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cwebber2
eprodrom: giving pages their own class and reifying them, aI also like that we've maintained the ability to maintain the entire collection in the whole object
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so we haven't forced paging for collections of 5/10/15 items
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so I for one think it's a big step forward, the big question arnaud brought up is whether we need to look closer at LDP paging
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: should paging belong to API? (IRC only, sorry but WebEx host code issue got me :( )
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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Loqi
*sniff*
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cwebber2
jasnell: so I view LDP paging as orthogonal; it's compatible. LDP paging is mainly off of link header, we can make use of that
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cwebber2
jasnell: we've already prototyped that it does work
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cwebber2
jasnell: so we can have collection page and still have link headers at the sme time
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cwebber2
jasnell: permit implementers to choose which they want
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cwebber2
eprodrom: whoa, that's an interesting question
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cwebber2
eprodrom: idea is we'd support LDP paging as part of collection mechanism if you so chose?
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cwebber2
jasnell: yeah we don't have to spec it, implementer can use them together if they choose
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csarven
There is a tradeoff. What's the intention for paging? UI or machine consumption?
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wilkie
wouldn't that need to be spec'd for interop?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: ok but if I was a consumer and trying to read a collection you published, would I have to understand both LDP paging and AS paging?
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cwebber2
jasnell: well you could understand just one
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cwebber2
sandro: how do you know which you need to understand
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cwebber2
sandro: you need both?
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elf-pavlik
csarven, why do you need different pahs for machine and person? hypermedia++
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cwebber2
sandro: either the server has to emit both, or the client understands both
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think that is something we might need to call into play...
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cwebber2
eprodrom: james, is there a way we can go...
tantek joined the channel
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jasnell
a client GET's a collection, it can look at the headers if it wants, use them if they are there
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, Arnaud on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: one option is to ignore LDP paging, the other is to spec out how interop works
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eprodrom
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss should paging belong to API? (IRC only, sorry but WebEx host code issue got me :( )
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Zakim
sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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jasnell
otherwise, they look for the collection paging properties in the json-ld
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cwebber2
eprodrom: elf-pavlik: you're on the q
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elf-pavlik
I would like to propose leaving paging to API and not data syntax
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elf-pavlik
since it deals with *interface* not modeling domains
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sandro
+1 paging is an API issue
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elf-pavlik
do we need it if we have direct access to dataset?
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tantek
got kicked off IRC for a bit
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tantek
cwebber2: that was me that asked about link prev next, not jasnell
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Zakim
sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack Arnaud
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
cwebber2: tantek: I'm haivng trouble discerning between you, sandro, jasnell today :)
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tantek
q+ to state that paging and collections are two different things. plumbing/API vs. user-level concept.
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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csarven
elf-pavlik If direct access, yo ucan control that through the query mechanism for instance.
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tantek
can we get a URL for that WG note Arnaud ?
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wilkie
cwebber2: tantek and jasnell sound a lot alike
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cwebber2
Arnaud: I"m not arguing that we do LDP paging, it's a workingg group note, so we published it to the working group note, it's been months in the LDP workign group working on paging, and I'm looking at this saying "oh my, here we go again..."
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cwebber2
Arnaud: there are issues related to separation of concerns taht come in here
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tantek
cwebber2 no prob. will try to announce my presence
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cwebber2
Arnaud: this may be in line with API
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I don't know - hence why I'm asking Arnaud for a citation
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cwebber2
Arnaud: and whether or not you can separating the ??
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cwebber2
Arnaud: what lead LDP group to headers is it allows it to move to a lower level(?)
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cwebber2
Arnaud: that's why we moved to this
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cwebber2
Arnaud: I'm not pushing for one, I think we should go with one rather than 2
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cwebber2
eprodrom: it looks like we're coming up with many alternative proposals
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: accept PR #119
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to make a proposal to accept PR as documented
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: accept PR #199
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elf-pavlik
I would use as rulle of thumbe for social syntax: "what construct i need to express data and use it if i can download the whole dump of given dataset"
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm not sure if we need to close off discussion, but I would like to make this what's on the floor right now
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tantek
+0 haven't had time to review, but no objection, trusting editor to keep things moving forward
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csarven
0 Haven't reviewed.
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rhiaro
+0 haven't reviewed
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
this seems to be progress anyway
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cwebber2
+0 haven't reviewed but I am near +1 because it sounds sensibleish?
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to state that paging and collections are two different things. plumbing/API vs. user-level concept.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
+1 tantek
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cwebber2
tantek: I don't know if this will help, but talking about paging and collections, the paging does seem like it's a data acdess kind of low level thing
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cwebber2
tantek: so that seems like something I'm ok with that moving to the api, as opposed to that being defined in AS
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cwebber2
tantek: collections to me are much more of a user thing
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cwebber2
tantek: I'm going to post a collection of stuff
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tantek
indiewebcamp.com/collection
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csarven
I also think that paging seems more appropriate for the API.
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cwebber2
tantek: so I'm advising we don't conflate those two
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elf-pavlik
can we make straw man pool if we can move it to API ?
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wilkie
+1 seems fine enough. I could see this being placed in the api instead since CollectionPage etc will be ephemeral.
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cwebber2
tantek: which might allow us to keep collection posts in activitystreams while moving paging to a different level?
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so if we have a URL like (two above) I think the core proposal would have us return a page for the first item and a collection for the second item
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cwebber2
eprodrom: obviously these are examples for proposals but not API (?)
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so even if we think paging is something API handles, that would be if we think page representations should be different than non-page representations (??) it would be useful to have object classes for both of those
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
cwebber2: I'm not totally sure I got that right eprodrom, please review
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cwebber2
eprodrom: has everyone chimed in on the proposal who will like to?
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tantek
admits he's not sure he's fully understanding it, so just trying to clarify. not going to hold anything up though.
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cwebber2
is everyone chimed in who would like to make a decision?
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AnnB
abstain
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elf-pavlik
API may need to add AS2 independent vocabulary terms, i don't think we should shovel something in there 'just in case we need it'
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tantek
justincaseweneedit--
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Loqi
justincaseweneedit has -1 karma
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: accept PR #199
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so we're at 10:40, we have two other AS2.0 discussions
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eprodrom
TOPIC: as:Like vs as:like
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cwebber2
eprodrom: first is about likes, as:Like vs as:like
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik, please explain
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elf-pavlik
i couldn't join call due to missing host code for dial out :(
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cwebber2
eprodrom: elf-pavlik, please explain
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ben_thatmustbeme
wonders if we should get to AnnB's agenda item since i believe it was in there first
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cwebber2
eprodrom: elf-pavlik, how would you like to proceed
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elf-pavlik
i would invite everyone to read email and social-vocab illustration and prepare for discussing it in 2 weeks
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csarven
He suggested earlier that we can put it off to the next meeting
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cwebber2
eprodrom: you can type or make proposal
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik, how would you like to proceed? You can type, or make a proposal, or we can defer until next week
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cwebber2
eprodrom: or we can defer until next week
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elf-pavlik
in *2 weeks* ?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: ok we'll move to next week
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cwebber2
eprodrom: next proposal also proposed by elf-pavlik
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik, shall we move the next proposal to next week?
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Arnaud
right, s/next week/next call/
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cwebber2
eprodrom: would like to move next proposal to next week
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elf-pavlik
our wiki currently says "2015-09-08 Telecon (no 2015-09-01 call) chair: Tantek"
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cwebber2
eprodrom: yes I'm sorry, next call not next week
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jasnell
fyi... I will not be here for the next call
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jasnell
will be attending NodeConfEU
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik, waiting for your response to move on
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elf-pavlik
i put it there after exchanging emails with harry on mailing list
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elf-pavlik
yes lets postpone it for when we get hold of webex host code
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cwebber2
eprodrom: in absence of response, will move it to sep 8th timeframe
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eprodrom
TOPIC: Social API user stories
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cwebber2
eprodrom: would like to move on to next topic about social apis user stories
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cwebber2
eprodrom: AnnB asked that we discuss these user stories
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so AnnB ?
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cwebber2
AnnB: my question was in regard to interest group, we originally understood request from working fgroup to work through esp stories with minor objections
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cwebber2
AnnB: so users could agree with user stories esp with relatively minor objections
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cwebber2
AnnB: we have to have the people who are the objectors engage
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cwebber2
AnnB: so question is, is that useful for us to do, and if yes, can we use every other working group meeting
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cwebber2
AnnB: I guess we're coming towards end of summer schedule so
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cwebber2
AnnB: but is it useful for working group to try to resolve the user stories
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tantek
I thought that was going to happen last week - but heard nothing
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cwebber2
eprodrom: will resolve question with a question, here's a set of user storeis which are +0 or 0 means "I don't care enough to fully object to let it go through"
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cwebber2
eprodrom: are we trying to resolve those also
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cwebber2
eprodrom: or also -1 or -0s
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cwebber2
AnnB: we were focusing on "minor objections" stories
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cwebber2
AnnB: when you read the objections they tend to be about language nuances rather than about whole concept of the story
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cwebber2
AnnB: so it seems relatively easy to resolve those objections
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cwebber2
tantek: in my experience many of those had loose language like "solve the problems of the whole world" which is beyond charter, so given dialogue around user stories was around "this user story was approved so we have to do everything possible around them"
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cwebber2
tantek: not sure how to resolve, but want to raise
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cwebber2
tantek: consternation around inbox problem is an example
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cwebber2
eprodrom: suggestions on how to proceed, here are examples with not all +1s but +1s and 0s
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tantek
indeed we should look at the 0s
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tantek
and see why
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cwebber2
eprodrom: we have not accepted those, Annb is it your understanding we can or should? i thin kwe should
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cwebber2
Annb: i'm looking for indication on what the IG should tdo that's valuable and supports the IG
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rhiaro
If another batch of user stories get formally 'accepted' I'm happy to go through them and do api requirements extraction as before
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cwebber2
annb: the entirely positive are entirely positive, no objections, but the +1s or +0s, I look to you to sort this out
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cwebber2
annb: and question raised, how rigid are these, are they locked in stone or?
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: you asked a question I wanted to make sure you were aware, we have a list of approved user stories, we 've mapped these out as the ones we've agreed to implement
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cwebber2
eprodrom: this is the magic list
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elf-pavlik
we can label stories with MUST || SHOULD || MAY and make sure we have implementation for MUST and our decision don't block anything needed for SHOULD and possibly bear in mind to not block MAY
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cwebber2
eprodrom: there sis expectation that those user storeis not in those approved list we either need to resolve as rejected or accept
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rhiaro
I like what elf-pavlik said
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cwebber2
eprodrom: we do need to get to a sorting process
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro :)
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think SWAT0 was an important one
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cwebber2
eprodrom: second one was a sorting user stories entirely postiive, we accepted all of those
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cwebber2
eprodrom: what we haven't accepted are the other ones on those page
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if there's a process, I think a process as a group would be proposing then accepting those stories
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think it would be unlikely to do it in a different way
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
tantek: no problem
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cwebber2
AnnB: I have a quesiton, can I clarify
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elf-pavlik
+q to ask if accepting a story *obligates* us to show working implementation based on delivered specs before claiming victory?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
AnnB: so the approved user stories, I think we can see swat0, are those one and the same as the ones that were entirely positive
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cwebber2
AnnB: user posts a note, reading ((?))
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cwebber2
eprodrom: yes those were entirely positive, in july/june we voted whether to accept, and we decided to accept those ones in particular
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cwebber2
annb: yes I understood that part, what I thought was the baseline was those were the entirely postivie and swat0, I think that for future work the IG was to work on ones that weren't entirely positive
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cwebber2
annb: so we don't want to do work that's not valuable
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
annb: seems interesting to work on, but if not valuable it's not valuable
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cwebber2
annb: also sound is breaking up fo rme, not sure for everyone else
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cwebber2
tantek: yeah, so I was going to point out regarding user stories, there's a bit of difference in how we resolve user stories than other ones, I'd look at the ones we had +1s, and why would there be 0s or -1s. if its' all +1s and +0s, what's the problem, but compared to ???? and -1s
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cwebber2
tantek: the traditional way is traditional w3c thing is if nobody objects move forward
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cwebber2
tantek: but I said that's a bad way to move forward
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elf-pavlik
i'll post clear proposal by next week about labeling stories MUST || SHOULD || MAY where which comes with different implications - from more commiting to less commiting
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cwebber2
annb: a number of things were like "there's an attachment in the middle, but should it really be anywhere", that's easy to resolve
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elf-pavlik
s/which/which one/
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jasnell
dropping. have another call I need to prep for
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I understand that, that's a reasonable way to sort them, but there is like 100 of them
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cwebber2
annb: yeah evan, aren't the sortings that ben_thatmustbeme were like that
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Zakim
sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: yes but tantek is saying whether or not the ???
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cwebber2
tantek: I was just answering annb's question
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
tantek: I was just saying, pick at ones that have ones that have more +1s, rather than "least objections"
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Zakim
sees cwebber, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: sorry to do this but will jump to front of queue
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AnnB
+1
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm going to propose we extend by 10 mintues
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: 10 minute extension of meeting
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: 10 minute extension of meeting
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ben_thatmustbeme
scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber: i was going to say that, if the IG finds many of these are easy to resolve, I would trust the IG to find the ones that are most close to being resolvable
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rhiaro
cwebber++
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Loqi
cwebber has 3 karma
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rhiaro
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 42 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
maybe the best thing for the IG to do is to find those that are most likely to resolve, and make edits as needed and propose them back to the WG
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ben_thatmustbeme
AnnB: We were accepting the catagorization that ben_thatmustbeme was working with and we were just going down that list. I think what you are proposing is to go through the list and just find those most likely to resolve
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elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme if you cribe someone else you need nickname: or ... if you continue same person
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cwebber2
AnnB: that sounds good, we were accepting the categorization ben_thatmustbeme came up with, we started with the minor objection group and bring them forward
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so I gave an example of one that has mostly approval, but it had "why not do this but do text", and easy resolution is "just do text", but you do need some responsiveness from the people who did the objection
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ben_thatmustbeme
scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2
AnnB: you're describing what we think is a good process, we don't want to make a resolution for tantek on how to fix it, we'd ask him how he thinks we can resolve that
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik i know, slipped
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so maybe a process we can use is that the IG will continue to go through these, and at intervals where there are issues resolved, we can bring back to the WG, and we can vote to accept / not accept
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elf-pavlik
ok, just making sure so you and cwebber2 have less editing afterwards :)
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cwebber2
AnnB: main request I have from the WG, we need to talk to you
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: ask the IG to continue to resolve objections and propose user stories for acceptance
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cwebber2
AnnB: we're happy to coordinate, but we need that kind of support from individual objectors
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cwebber2
eprodrom: (repeats proposal above), does that sound reasonable?
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cwebber2
AnnB: yes with the caveat that participants must help resolve
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: ask the IG to continue to resolve objections with the help of WG members and propose user stories for acceptance
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cwebber2
eprodrom: how about this one ^^^
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elf-pavlik
we can agree to void objection if person objecting not engages in clarifying them (via github as we agreed) in timely manner < 1 week delay
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AnnB
+1
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber2
eprodrom: cna I get a straw poll?
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ben_thatmustbeme
though i would say, if you don't get a response from some individuals, still propose edits, may still be worth the work put in to it
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm getting all +1s so that looks strong
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: ask the IG to continue to resolve objections with the help of WG members and propose user stories for acceptance
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cwebber2
cwebber2: I agree ben_thatmustbeme, if the IG feels comfortable with ti
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so great thanks so much AnnB
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rhiaro
AnnB: good point, I'll review
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Loqi
AnnB has 29 karma
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cwebber2
AnnB: I want to also ask if anyone has a particular story to resolve, point us at it
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cwebber2
AnnB: IG is continuing,
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so ??? would be a good time to help resolve
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cwebber2
AnnB: our meeting on wedsnesays is 1 hour earlier than this, for west coast it was a bit early and in europe a bit late
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ben_thatmustbeme
i thought it was 2 hours earlier
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cwebber2
AnnB: but we'll do whatever
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if you can keep us up to date as time changes
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cwebber2
AnnB: we'll ping individuals
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cwebber2
eprodrom: awesome, thanks so much AnnB
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great, well I feel like we got to a resolution here, if there are no objections would like to close up the meeting
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if that seems reasonable, thanks all for coming
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eprodrom
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
AnnB: thanks, and thank you eprodrom !
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/25-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: i know, same here
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elf-pavlik
unless we already have clearly documented on a wiki *implications* of accepting a user story (link please?), I would like that we clearly agree on such implications and document them on wiki
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wilkie
cwebber2++
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AnnB
thanks cwebber for awesome scribing!
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 43 karma
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik, I'm sorry, you were on the queue and I didn't ack you
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cwebber2
rhiaro: where's your pandoc link again?
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AnnB
oh bummer
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom, no worries!
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I broke it, gonna try to get it back up within the next hour!
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rhiaro
I'll let you know
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eprodrom
apt-get install pandoc
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eprodrom
It's pretty easy to use
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ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom: so was I
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elf-pavlik
i think my comment above can help us to sync our understanding of what 'accepting a story' implies
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rhiaro
that works too
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ben_thatmustbeme
to exactly bring up that point
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rhiaro
I put the exact command for pandoc on the wiki at one point
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eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme, yeesh, totally rushed through that
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2 covered most of what i wanted to say anyway
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eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme, elf-pavlik: I'm going to put this on the agenda for next meeting if you don't mind
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom++ thanks!
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Loqi
eprodrom has 25 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom, sounds good to me
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elf-pavlik
got to run, ciao everyone o/
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ben_thatmustbeme
it was my understanding the user stories were really as a guide for developement of the APIs and are not some output of the group
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ben_thatmustbeme
precisely why we voted on them without much editorial review
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rhiaro
ben_thatmustbeme: I think it's an optional output of the IG. But they're useful for deriving api requirements that are actually grounded in something
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rhiaro
More useful for deriving api requirements from nowhere, at least
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eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme: that is my understanding too
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ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom: thats where a lot of trouble came in, they were being taken as technical documentation, not as a sort of quick and dirty guide for API design
bblfish_ joined the channel
jasnell joined the channel
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rhiaro
cwebber2: pandoc.amy.gy is back up
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rhiaro
if you still need it
jasnell joined the channel
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cwebber2
rhiaro: \o/
bblfish, AnnB and jasnell joined the channel
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AnnB
reading the log ... I see, at 9:39, that I 'slaps tsyesika around a bit with a large fishbot' ... apologies! mistakenly slapping
#
AnnB
then I see query from KevinMarks_, about if I tweet ..
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AnnB
yes, I do, although not often
jasnell joined the channel
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KevinMarks_
given bridgy, replying to a post on twitter will show up on the post via webmention
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AnnB
you said there is wiring available to make tweets show up as comments ..
jasnell_ joined the channel
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AnnB
I presume that Amy (whose blog was in question) would have to implement that on her site?
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cwebber2
wseltzer: ping if you have time
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AnnB
now I see (on 8/21, at 1:08) that Amy added onto your comment, "I usually tweet my posts, so if you reply on twitter to any tweet of mine that contains a link to the post you want to reply to, your reply will get pulled through to my site as well"
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KevinMarks_
if you click on the little twitter bird above that it will show up
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KevinMarks_
(and reply to the twitter link)
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KevinMarks_
Tentek pointed out that by having a 'reply on twitter' link on his posts they end up connected tothe indieweb
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KevinMarks_
which is a neat trick
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KevinMarks_
howber, hedoesn't show the replies like amy does
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Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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AnnB
I couldn't get the Twitter bird on Amy's blog to work ..
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AnnB
then tried to find her tweet re: her post on extensibility ... to no avail
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AnnB
thought I'd try replying in Twitter
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AnnB
also, BTW, KevinMarks -- I saw your message (thanks to Loqi!) suggesting I get a withknown account and try this out for myself ... indeed, I should!
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Loqi
you're welcome
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AnnB
@rhiaro started me down that path months ago when we were at MIT ... and I never came back to it
KevinMarks, jasnell and the_frey joined the channel
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rhiaro
hey AnnB, you still there? The twitter bird on my posts isn't there to link to the twitter copies
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rhiaro
It's a shortcut for myself, so after I post to my site, I can go to it and click that to tweet the link
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rhiaro
but having a reply on twitter button is probably a good idea now I'm showing replies
the_frey joined the channel
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aaronpk
rhiaro: just linking to the tweet is enough, so people can find the twitter thread
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rhiaro
AnnB, you can reply to this tweet for that post https://twitter.com/rhiaro/status/634363454724440064 (you probably want to remove some of the @mentions of other people, it's in another thread)
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Loqi
@rhiaro :: @kevinmarks @AccBristol @chaals @danbri Somewhat belated, but I finally posted prompted by this conversation http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/08/extensibility
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rhiaro
aaronpk: yeah, I haven't figured out how to do that easily yet
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rhiaro
Since my POSSE's aren't automatic
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AnnB
yo rhiaro, yes still here
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rhiaro
The easiest flow right now would be post -> POSSE -> insert the syndication link into my triplestore directly
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rhiaro
Don't really want to juggle the twitter api
jasnell joined the channel
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KevinMarks
ah, I see, sorry
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aaronpk
rhiaro: use bridgy publish!
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rhiaro
I like to be able to tweak the tweet content by hand
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KevinMarks
the way tantek has the twitter reply buttons wrapped in indie-actions would work for yours, rhiaro I think (once you have the tweet url)
tantek joined the channel
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KevinMarks
and as you incorporate the webmentions, it would make sense as a comment button
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aaronpk
rhiaro: so basically you want an api to publish to twitter that is not the twitter api
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aaronpk
say... a micropub api?
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aaronpk
maybe kylewm can add twitter to https://silo.pub/
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rhiaro
hah, that'd be awesome
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rhiaro
but wait, wouldn't my site have to be a micropub client?
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aaronpk
yeah but really all that means is you need to make a post request to silo.pub
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rhiaro
Hmm, AnnB I see your tweet but bridgy hasn't picked it up
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rhiaro
oh wait, i'ts in
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rhiaro
too impatient
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AnnB
ha!
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rhiaro
it'll show up on my post sooon... just gotta fix something
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AnnB
cool beans
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ben_thatmustbeme
"cool beans" haven't heard that one in a while
jasnell joined the channel
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AnnB
how about 'groovy'?
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AnnB
(not really in my vocab for the last 4 years)
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AnnB
I meant 40
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AnnB
probly more like 50
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AnnB
what's the modern equivalent?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm behind the times
tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk
oh i guess grool is actualy "great" and "cool"
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ben_thatmustbeme
for those of us from New England :)
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AnnB
love it .. grool
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AnnB
wicked cool ... wool? (doesn't quite float)
jasnell joined the channel
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AnnB
grool!
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AnnB
thanks everyone for tutoring me on all of that
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tantek
reads logs
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tantek
oh a new post from Amy
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rhiaro
it's 5 days old, ancient in web time
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