#social 2015-09-08

2015-09-08 UTC
bblfish, the_frey, jasnell, jasnell_ and jasnell__ joined the channel
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Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85549&oldid=85509
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elf-pavlik hola #social o/ greetings from Barcelona
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85550&oldid=85549
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, hi o/ do you know some special channel to contact tantek to make sure that he knows that wiki page marks him as chair for today meeting and both Evan and Arnaud sent their regrets? I don't see him in history of today's agenda edits!!! https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg/2015-09-08&action=history
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ben_thatmustbeme he mentioned it yestertday about being chair
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, thanks!
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: there was something on the agenda with your name re: "approved" user stories?
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melvster1 do you have any more detail?
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melvster1 ' User Stories -- what are the implications of a story being "accepted"? (per elf-pavlik and Ben Roberts)'
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melvster1 also btw bi directional links are normally considered a bad idea
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melvster1 it is possible to use rev and rel
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melvster1 there are 519 -- +1 "yes, I need it, will implement, worth doing" -- but nowhere near 519 of the voters followed through less than 90% or even closer to 99%
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melvster1 the voting is not representative
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elf-pavlik melvster1, i also like rev and rel https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-89789736
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elf-pavlik bi directional != defining inverse properties in vocabulary
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melvster1 ok
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elf-pavlik i also plan to explain today alternative to defining as:Follow & as:isFollowing & as:isFollowedBy
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elf-pavlik with simple reuse of as:follow (a rdf:Property not a owl:Class!)
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: got it, im using sioc : follows right now, so does not affect my implementation
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elf-pavlik melvster1, you can see my draft for Issue/Pull Request here, will just add diagrams illustrating it https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property
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elf-pavlik needs to focus on finishing this draft before telecon!
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melvster1 good luck, no strong opinion on that one, already have terms I can reuse in my implementations
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melvster1 but your argument makes sense
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elf-pavlik i would like to avoid creating multiple vocabulary terms where we can simply reuse a single instance of rdf:Property (~ link relation)
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elf-pavlik melvster1, would you like to take a look at version with diagrams? :) https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: nice work!
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elf-pavlik thx
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85554&oldid=85550
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csarven elf Did you get a chance to look at https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/191#issuecomment-136096379 ?
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elf-pavlik I get 'Meeting Number Not Found' for 642 112 960
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csarven That's not the number
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csarven +1617324000
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csarven tel:+1-617-324-000
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elf-pavlik csarven, can you imagine adding some equivalent examples in JSON-LD or diagrams illustraing how you see modeling it?
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elf-pavlik i use iPad WebEx app today
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elf-pavlik agenda page says There is a meeting number: 642 112 960
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sandro elf, that code worked for me, although I'm the only person in the meeting
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csarven Oh sorry.. yes, "meeting number" is 642 112 960.. I presume that's the one you enter in after you dial.
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csarven Which is what I'm about to do.
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elf-pavlik ok, seems to work now \o/
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sandro I'm having insane computer problems. rebooting to new OS. wont be on IRC.
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cwebber2 dialing in, one sec
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tantek dialing in
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cwebber2 I'm in
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cwebber2 yep!
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tantek present+ tantek
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cwebber2 present+ cwebber2
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csarven present+ csarven
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csarven present+ sandro
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elf-pavlik present+ elf-pavlik
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aaronpk present+ aaronpk
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tantek trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/08-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 08 September 2015
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tantek zakim, who is here?
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Zakim Present: (no one)
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Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, csarven, tilgovi, tantek, cwebber2, melvster1, elf-pavlik, the_frey, pdurbin, KevinMarks, oshepherd, dwhly, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, Loqi, slvrbckt,
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Zakim ... bigbluehat, bret, aaronpk, tommorris_, tessierashpool_, wilkie, tsyesika, raucao, ElijahLynn, sandro, trackbot, wseltzer
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ben_thatmustbeme lunch ran late, connecting now
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tantek present+ tantek
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csarven present+ csarven
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csarven present+ sandro
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elf-pavlik present+ elf-pavlik
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tantek zakim, who is here?
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Zakim Present: tantek, csarven, sandro, elf-pavlik
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Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, csarven, tilgovi, tantek, cwebber2, melvster1, elf-pavlik, the_frey, pdurbin, KevinMarks, oshepherd, dwhly, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, Loqi, slvrbckt,
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Zakim ... bigbluehat, bret, aaronpk, tommorris_, tessierashpool_, wilkie, tsyesika, raucao, ElijahLynn, sandro, trackbot, wseltzer
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aaronpk present+ aaronpk
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rhiaro Google Voice is telling me 'correct the number', not sure what I'm doing wrong this time
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rhiaro sighs
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elf-pavlik rhiaro you use +1-617-324-0000 ?
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tantek rhiaro I'm using Google Hangouts to make the call. And that number +1-617-324-0000 is correct.
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rhiaro worked this time, just weirdness I guess
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tantek rhiaro remember to present+ yourself when you're on the call
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rhiaro present+ rhiaro
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rhiaro Sure
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tantek scribe: rhiaro
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csarven whistles
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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elf-pavlik rhiaro++
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-08-25-minutes
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Loqi rhiaro has 155 karma
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csarven +1
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rhiaro TOPIC: Approval of last weeek's minutes
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elf-pavlik +1
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rhiaro +1
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rhiaro tantek: Resolved, approval of minutes
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-29
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rhiaro TOPIC: F2F at TPppAC
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rhiaro 's keyboard has developed a sstutter
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ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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rhiaro sorry gonnaa have to restart seriously
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rhiaro brb 2 mins
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 111 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we discussed the F2F last meeting and were hoping by today we would know if we had enough participants
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tsyesika present+ tsyesika
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ben_thatmustbeme ... looking at the current participants list, I don't see updates from AnnB, or aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme ... aaronpk do you have any new info?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: its still in progress unfortunately
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: anyone else? right now we only have 4 confirmed and rhiaro and csarven are dependant on
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ben_thatmustbeme ... sandro
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ben_thatmustbeme ... unless we have some update by the end of the call we are likely going to have to cancel
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csarven Sounds reasonable to me.
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ben_thatmustbeme ... does anyone else have anything to update, I'm hoping to be corrected but it looks like only option
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rhiaro is back
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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cwebber2 I am more likely able to do that
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rhiaro tantek: We had discussed having a separate face to face maybe in the US, where more people can make it
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rhiaro ... Maybe everyone could start thinking about when and where they could do that
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cwebber2 I'll probably be in boston near the end of the month but that's too soon for everyone I'm sure :)
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rhiaro ... We would like participation from chairs and everyone who is editing a document, and everyone who is implmeenting
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rhiaro ... THese are they key people to have at a meeting
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rhiaro sandro: I could send an email or a doodle poll to figure out..
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rhiaro tantek: If we have enough information to start a doodle poll, go ahead. I don't feel like I have enough. Otherwise send an email.
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rhiaro sandro: What more information?
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elf-pavlik location first?
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rhiaro tantek: Even a range of dates to choose among?
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rhiaro sandro: We're supposed to give 8 weeks notice, so assuming we pick a week from today that starts us week of Nov 10th
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rhiaro ... Presumably we don't want to hold it thanksgiving. That's two weeks before thanksgiving, a week or so after thanksgiving
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rhiaro did everything go quiet or is it just me?
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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csarven rhiaro Audio is still okay fo rme.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: lets action sandro to narrow down possible date ranges for next F2F
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ben_thatmustbeme not sure how to action ATM
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rhiaro omg, sorry, great time to have a panic attack, laptop
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tantek ACTION: sandro narrow down possible date ranges for next F2F
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 1
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trackbot Created ACTION-73 - Narrow down possible date ranges for next f2f [on Sandro Hawke - due 2015-09-15].
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-08#Activity_Streams_2.0
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ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
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tantek issue 1: "as:Like (an rdfs:Class) or as:like (an rdf:Property)?"
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trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we have a couple of issues raised by elf-pavlik, before we deep dive into these on telconf we should make sure we have people effected by these on the telcon or don't waste time on this telcon
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property
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elf-pavlik me :)
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csarven +q
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Zakim sees csarven on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme ... are there any implementors here impacted by this issue on the telconf?
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csarven Sort of..
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elf-pavlik melvster1 ?
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ben_thatmustbeme ... if its only elf-pavlik being effected, not sure its best to discuss here
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ben_thatmustbeme ... I looked at the information on this issue, but did not see any link to any implementation actually blocked by the issue. I would recommend that you include links to that issue
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tantek next issue: "Represent bidirectional connections "
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tantek https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/180
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ben_thatmustbeme ... moving on to the next issue
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melvster1 already implemented ... not impacted ...
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ben_thatmustbeme ... I don't understand, this issue says closed
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ben_thatmustbeme ... is there a different issue relating to this elf?
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: no, i don't see this issue as resolved, james just closed the issue
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melvster1 isnt using AS2.0 for this, using ontologi.es/likes
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I think that sounds like a different issue should be pointed to or re-opened.
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: I will propose for next week that we need to figure out workflow for github issues
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cwebber2 I'm not enough in rdf-land to be sure I'm impacted
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: same question as before applies, who on the call, is impacted by this issue?
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elf-pavlik q+ re: implementers on the call
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Zakim sees csarven, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro is back, shall I try again ben_thatmustbeme?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees csarven, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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tantek ack csarven
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme ... I think this should be iterated on asyncronously until there are more implementors on the call
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro sure
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick rhiaro
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rhiaro scarven: first of all, unclear on issues, lots of crossreferencing going on across eamils and github
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rhiaro s/scarven/csarven
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rhiaro ... I think what elf is trying to raise is important for AS2
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme can you take over
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rhiaro my keyboard is freaking out still
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rhiaro sorry
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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elf-pavlik i'll create new issue for it on gh!
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats why i was asking if there is any implementors on the call, since James is not here, it doesn't really make sense to discuss
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ben_thatmustbeme ... I think this should be clarified as to what part of the spec actually has an issue, the discussion is more conceptual and less concrete
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: I will try to clarify for next week and hopefully james will be on the call
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csarven More about the model
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rhiaro I tried to figure out some of this stuff, but I think definitely better understood by actual implementation. Be good to see examples of options implemented.
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: specifically i'd recommend you try to get much clearer on what specific parts of the spec are effected
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melvster1 has already implemented likes, AS2.0 and MF2 didnt meet needs, so used ontologi.es
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: I wanted to clarify the approach of asking for implementors on the call since only james implements a library. I think we can discuss the approach before we implement
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csarven present+ csarven
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ben_thatmustbeme ... specifically this deals with how we model, i don't think we need to have implementors on the call
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: they could be implementING, don't have to have implmentED. so its who feels this would effect them
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-08#Social_API
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ben_thatmustbeme moving on
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ben_thatmustbeme topic: Social API
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tantek "User Stories -- what are the implications of a story being "accepted"? "
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elf-pavlik q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: question was raised as to what are the implications of a story being "accepted"
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: amy are you back on to take over as scribe?
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm willing to let elf-pavlik introduce
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melvster1 FYI: there 519 +1 votes -- "will implement"
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: we have had back and forth on what are the consequences of accepting a user story
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rhiaro sorry, changed to phone, should be okay now
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that should be documented at the social api page
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks rhiaro
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rhiaro tantek: We were talking about what should be in the social api. We had research on what proprietary social APIs do, all on the wiki
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rhiaro ... Evan then proposed a list of social api requirements, based on a union of all those proprietary APIs
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rhiaro ... The group decided that was far beyond what we needed to do for a v1
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elf-pavlik link to minutes?
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rhiaro ... Instead of using a list of derived reqs from existing sites like that, we wanted to base the requirements on user stories that the group was interested in solving
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rhiaro ... That led to the proposal of user stories, and voting on them
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rhiaro ... After that ben_thatmustbeme sorted them by different clusters
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik, i have all the minutes downloaded, i can grep across them for that week to link you to probably
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ben_thatmustbeme after the meeting that is
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elf-pavlik thanks ben_thatmustbeme
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rhiaro ... After that, or even before that, we agreed that swat0 was one of our foundational user stories
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rhiaro ... Then we agreed to accept the user stories that were all +1
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ben_thatmustbeme not at this computer
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rhiaro ... Leaving the rest to the IG to attempt to resolve these issues on
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hhalpin everyone, just got out of the dentists
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rhiaro ... The implication there being that the purpose of the user stories is to drive rquireemnts for the API, so the accepted user stories would be used to dtermine those requirements
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elf-pavlik hhalpin
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rhiaro ... Maybe that's the next step, to say given these user stories what does that say about reqs for API
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rhiaro ... That's how we got to where we are
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rhiaro <rhiaro> I tried the reqs from user stories doc
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hhalpin I'll join the call but can't speak due to my entire mouth being numb for the next hour or two, but happy to chat via IRC - hope things have been going well!
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ben_thatmustbeme agrees that should probably be on the site, or at least linked anywhere there is a list of "approved" user stories
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rhiaro sandro: We should avoid being legalistic about it. Anyone designing an api should have in mind the things that everyone seems to want it to do
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melvster1 sandro++
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rhiaro ... Not an agreement that we will only consider things that will only meet all of these criteria, and have some kind of formal thing
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Loqi sandro has 23 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme we should probably be written on the site, or at least linked anywhere there is a list of "approved" user stories
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rhiaro ... Makes people panic and argue in a way that doesn't reflect reality
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rhiaro ... We should keep it more descriptive than prescriptive
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elf-pavlik q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... But that's my perspective, not always how people want to do things
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rhiaro tantek: I think your perspective is accurate
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 24 karma
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elf-pavlik sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 25 karma
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rhiaro tantek: I think the user stories list and voting was an attempt to narrow absolute list and requirements
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... These are good inputs to what a social api SHOULD have rather than MUST have is a good interpretation
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tantek ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... That's my understanding as to how we got here
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: I get frustrated that you and sandro see differently. You said it's to narrow the absolute requirement, and sandro said it's more about getting general idea of what people want, not absolute
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rhiaro ... So we don't look for this absolute requirement or hard line, but what we can expect others to give attention to, and maybe we should focus furst on things that are of common interest, and not feel discouraged about pursuing things that are less of common interest
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rhiaro ... We should document this, and why do we have a formal process of accepting and not accepting, seems we have a different understanding
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rhiaro tantek: your point about prioritising what seems to be common wants is a good one
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rhiaro ... Certainly the tone in the group has shifted from the earlier days when we were trying to require all of these things
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rhiaro ... Now people are implementing it's clear that there's a lot of work to be done
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rhiaro ... Totally fine to move in that direction. What sandro described makes sense, without trying to compel what goes into a draft
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rhiaro ... The more we canminimise the MUSTs the better
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hhalpin +1 should, be we need interop over a small set of minimal functionality
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rhiaro ... Makes it easier to write a spec, test suite, go to CR
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hhalpin for the CR test-suite
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rhiaro elf-pavlike: Maybe we don't need this process for accepting user stories?
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rhiaro tantek: We need to know what anyone wants
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melvster1 people are not implementing ... there were 519 +1s meaning "will implement" ... but only a small fraction of those voters followed through ...
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rhiaro sandro: I lean against a formal process. We can base it on observation of votes. People can change their votes if priorities change
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rhiaro tantek: Does anyone know what melvin means by 519 +1s?
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rhiaro ... I don't udnerstand what that's about
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elf-pavlik melvster1 on call?
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melvster1 the user story voting, I counted the +1s
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I'm guessing he jsut counted all the +1s between all the votes?
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rhiaro ... Because it was originally that +1 was labelled as 'plan to implement'
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rhiaro tantek: THat's a misinterpretation
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rhiaro ... just because someone +1ed doesn't mean they were planning to implement
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melvster1 ok, it's on the page still
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rhiaro ... Some people noted they would implement, but +1 doesn't mean that
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rhiaro ... Going to treat that as misreading documentation
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aaronpk melvster1, what are you using to determine whether someone is implementing? I am implementing things and still plan to implement things that I have not started yet, so not really sure what point you're trying to make
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rhiaro <rhiaro> For the record.. https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Requirements
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melvster1 +1 "yes, I need it, will implement, worth doing"
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rhiaro tantek: Whether user stories are useful to accept or not, it's to help understand what's common interests
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melvster1 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
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rhiaro ... Just because we're moving away from MUST to SHOULD doesn't mean we throw everything out
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rhiaro ... If you can't describe some api functionality in terms of user story, probably means you shouldn't have it
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rhiaro ... To stop draft ballooning out of control with every feature request
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster1, probably you should read those ,'s as ORs
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ben_thatmustbeme not ANDs
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: Will we continue process of trying to formally +1 and accept? Or keep it around as a reference but no more formalising?
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rhiaro tantek: Depends on what desires the different impelentors have?
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rhiaro ... Are there user stories that people are implementing that go beyond the scope of what is already approved or not?
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rhiaro ... As I hear, even the user storeis that are accepted are a lot of work, so we don't need more
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rhiaro ... I strongly suggest that if you're implementing something you focus on what's already been approved, instead of trying to add more work
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rhiaro ... When someone is willing to declare victory on implementing all the accepted user stories, we can have this discussion again
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rhiaro melvster1, I read the ',' in "yes, I need..." as OR rather than AND
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro tantek: ben, anything to add about implications of user stories?
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I guess not, mostly covered
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melvster1 I think the implemented user stories should be a strong input : https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
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rhiaro ... A lot of this came out of people trying to implement those exactly. We need to make it known that people don't need to implement every exact thing. Not specs, just reference for guiding us.
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rhiaro tantek: What do people think about that? Implementors should take the user stories as useful functionality, but not a precise step by step requirement
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elf-pavlik q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: exactly
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rhiaro sandro: I guess I wonder why that is?
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elf-pavlik who makes noise?
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme ?
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tantek zakim, who is noisy?
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Zakim I am sorry, tantek; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
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rhiaro sandro: If you ahve 3 different implementors demoing user stories, and two do it one way and one is different, that seems like it's going to cause confusion and problems
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: The problem is that we didn't read these user stories as exact specifications. If I went back and voted on them that way it woudl be different. We ended up arguing about 'inbox' terminology
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rhiaro sandro: Terminology doesn't affect code, so terminology aside, what else?
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rhiaro tantek: I don't think we can avoid people misinterpreting a user stories
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I didn't go through these thinking of them as specs. The functionality of being able to like something is different to having a button on a site below a post
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rhiaro ... If we start reading them as technical documents, you have to follow exactly what they say
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rhiaro ... It's important to tell people that's not what these are, because they were not gone over that way
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rhiaro ... We should not say this is approved, this is perfect, you should implement exactly like this
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rhiaro ... that may not make sense
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rhiaro sandro: If we say that these are not to be understood precisely, we've muddied the waters without gving any new guidence
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rhiaro tantek: not if that's hwo we all interpret them
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elf-pavlik q+ re: IG ambition to 'clarify' those stories and need for it
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... If the folks that voted on them initially did not interpret them with thta precision, it does not seem reasonable to assert that precision now
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hhalpin I imagine the 'precision' will come out in the test-suite, right?
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rhiaro sandro: I agree with that, just trying to find something more useful than handwaving around it
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rhiaro ... My proposal would be that anyone that thinks this goes back to change their plus ones to clarify this
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme can you please mute when you don't speak?
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hhalpin It seems this 'terminology' issue might be making a mountain out of a molehill.
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rhiaro ... I'm fine with saying terminololy everywhere is not rigid
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csarven q+ re: too much confusion over semantics right now. Without implementation , it is hard to tell
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, csarven on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... But other things. Seems more useful than just saying don't take any of this stuff literally
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme thx!
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rhiaro tantek: Let's at least put that proposal... let the user stories be interpreted as stheir functionality, not their terminology
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rhiaro sandro: I'm cool with that
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rhiaro tantek: Does that reflect at least part of your concern, ben?
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: certainly
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rhiaro tantek: any objections?
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rhiaro q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, csarven on the speaker queue
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rhiaro tantek: if you have objections, -1 in IRC
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rhiaro ... This is a specific proposal
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elf-pavlik rhiaro can you retype it?
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rhiaro ... Then we'll go to the queue
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rhiaro tantek: Let's at least put that proposal... let the user stories be interpreted as stheir functionality, not their terminology
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elf-pavlik PROPOSAL
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tantek +1
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csarven +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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cwebber2 +1
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cwebber2 seems good
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rhiaro PROPOSAL: User stories are interpreted as their functionality, not by terminology
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elf-pavlik +1
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rhiaro +1
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tsyesika +1
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rhiaro sandro: +1
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rhiaro RESOLVED: User stories are interpreted as their functionality, not by terminology
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csarven q-
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro tantek: Hopefully thsi will resolve literal interpretation problems in future
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rhiaro tantek: Next issue is, inbox user story was overinterpreted
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rhiaro ... I don't think we can avoid that, people are going to interpret things however they want, people are looking for guidence wherever they can get it
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rhiaro ... Okay if osmeone wants to literally implement a user story, but not okay to demand others do so
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rhiaro ... I believe saying the functionality is the focus makes that clear
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rhiaro ... To avoid these arguements by literal text in the future
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I think that'll take care of it
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tantek ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss IG ambition to 'clarify' those stories and need for it
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: I would like to see if we give feedback to the interest group, who I hope will get more active now
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rhiaro ... They need to know if they should put effort into resolving issues to get them accepted
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rhiaro ... If we want to continue process of formal approval and have IG put effort into clarifying those stories so they can be formally approved, we still need to write down clear criteria of what acceptance implies
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rhiaro ... If it's just for understanding each other, we don't need all this strong effort into formal acceptance process, with people putting effort from IG into this
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rhiaro tantek: THere have been several times people have stated that it's useful to have a set of user stories that are accepted to prioritise common interests
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rhiaro ... Many people have indicated why that's useful
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rhiaro ... As far as trying to provide criteria to the IG, I don't see why that's necessary in terms of what the user stories are used for
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rhiaro ... The request of the IG is to go through 0s and -1s on user stories and resolve them
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ben_thatmustbeme q+
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... That is to contact people objecting or being neutral about a user story, finding out why, seeing if it's possibe to resolve, ideally with original author of user story
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rhiaro ... It doesn't need anything more than that. Focus on those votes and those people, resolve them one by one.
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rhiaro ... Anyone here from the IG to take that action?
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rhiaro ... AnnB is not here
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rhiaro ... Anyone an active participant in IG to take that action?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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rhiaro <rhiaro> When the IG did try to do thsi a while back, WG members didn't respond well
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rhiaro tantek: Not hearing anyone step forward to take this action to the IG, so going to postpone. elf, you can try bringing this up again in the future. Unless we get IG participatns in the WG, we're not going to get progress on this
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elf-pavlik roger
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rhiaro ... If you want to drive that, you need to drive it in the IG yourself
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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tantek ack ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: Going to suggest that maybe the idea of having a formal approve/deny might be easier to do just as once we all agree on it, everyone is +1, then it's implicitly approved
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elf-pavlik +1 ben_thatmustbeme
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rhiaro ... This takes away any work on us to waste conference call time to put forward to proposals to approve
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rhiaro ... If everyone agrees they see it as useful, it's implicitly accepted
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rhiaro tantek: appreciate the optimism. If those vote changes occur based on changes to user stories, I think it's reasonable to have to raise those user stories to everyone else who might have voted, to make sure that their votes don't change
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rhiaro ... So we're not specifically asking everyone to go vote again, just trying to resolve non +1 votes with edits
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rhiaro ... With the optimistic assumption that everyone who voted +1 won't change their vote
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rhiaro ... But we have to challenge that assumption by bringing it up in a telecon to check for objections
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rhiaro ... Don't want to edit user stories from underneath people without them being notified
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ben_thatmustbeme makes sense
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-08#Tracking_of_Actions_and_Issues
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro TOPIC: Tracking of actions and issues
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised - none
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rhiaro tantek: 0 raised issues
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/pendingreview - none
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rhiaro ... 0 pending review issues
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rhiaro ... 0 pending review actions either
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview - none
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rhiaro ... Next telecon is next week
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... 15th, Arnaud chairing
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rhiaro ... Any other issues that anyone wants to raise in last 2 minutes?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... We're cancelling the face to face at tpac unfortunately as people can't make it
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rhiaro ... We'll follow up with a doodle poll to figure out when we can meet next
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elf-pavlik tantek++
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rhiaro ... Thanks everyone
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Loqi tantek has 237 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek++
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elf-pavlik thanks rhiaro!!!
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tantek rhiaro++ for minuting
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Loqi tantek has 238 karma
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Loqi rhiaro has 156 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 157 karma
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rhiaro RRSAgent, make minutes public
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RRSAgent I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', rhiaro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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rhiaro I swear this thing changes every week.
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aaronpk Loqi: tell RRSAgent to make the minutes
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csarven "Let my <del>people</del><ins>minutes</ins> go"
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rhiaro Zakim, make minutes public
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Zakim I don't understand 'make minutes public', rhiaro
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rhiaro Anyone, make minutes public??
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rhiaro RRSAgent, help
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RRSAgent More detailed help is available in http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
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RRSAgent Some of the commands I know are:
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RRSAgent silence - Stop logging (also: stop, off, ...)
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RRSAgent listen - Start logging (also: start, on, ...)
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RRSAgent excuse us - Leave the channel (also: bye)
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rhiaro oops, sorry
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RRSAgent grep [-i] [first-last|max] <perl regex> - Search the logs
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RRSAgent e.g. grep foo, grep 5 bar, grep -i things [case independent]
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RRSAgent append |mail EMAIL-ADDRESS to email results instead of printing
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RRSAgent bookmark - Give the URI of the current log
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RRSAgent show action items - give a list of ACTION: entries
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rhiaro RRSAgent, shut up
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RRSAgent drop action n - remove entry [n] from the list of action items
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RRSAgent I respond to 'RRSAgent, command' in public and '/msg RRSAgent command' in private
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RRSAgent Logging Policy: All public output is logged if I am listening except for
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RRSAgent "action" messages (messages sent with the '/me' command) and
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RRSAgent any lines starting [off]. All commands to me are logged.
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RRSAgent My public output is logged but these lines are not searchable.
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RRSAgent The log is in http://www.w3.org/2015/
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RRSAgent Do RRSAgent, adminhelp for help on administrative commands
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RRSAgent is not logging
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wilkie RRSAgent, please generate the minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/08-social-minutes.html wilkie
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rhiaro THANKS wilkie!!!
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rhiaro wilkie++
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Loqi wilkie has 19 karma
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wilkie np!
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rhiaro the bot whisperer
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rhiaro RRSAgent, do it faster
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RRSAgent I'm not logging. I don't understand 'do it faster', rhiaro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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rhiaro Thanks, RRSAgent
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rhiaro cwebber2, were you on that call?
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rhiaro You're not in the 'present', I'll add you, just want to check
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85555&oldid=0
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cwebber2 rhiaro: I was on the call
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cwebber2 thanks
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rhiaro okie dokie
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Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85559&oldid=85555
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85560&oldid=85559
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: a quick search turned up "stories" first getting talked about on 2015-02-03
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ben_thatmustbeme at least in any significant amount
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ben_thatmustbeme SWAT0 was first mentioned 2014-09-23-minutes
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cwebber2 http://ns.inria.fr/ast/sql/index.html huh, now that's something
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cwebber2 SQL AST mapped to RDF?
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cwebber2 I bet elf-pavlik either finds it interesting or knows more about this ;)
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85567&oldid=85482
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tantek FYI I've updated https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#sched with guesses / explicit notes of "unknown" per the ACTION item assigned to me as part of our Charter Update https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#sched
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tantek (oops didn't mean to paste the link twice)
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tantek continues to edit our home page wiki and notice other things out of date
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tantek is anyone in touch with Erik Wilde? according to our home page, he runs https://twitter.com/SocialWebWG - but he left the WG two months ago.
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85568&oldid=85567
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85569&oldid=85568
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85570&oldid=85504
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