2015-10-06 UTC
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# 10:07 elf-pavlik !tell harry will you stay in Paris one of next days, I plan to stay around here for couple more days and we could meet up :) also http://www.xwiki.org team would like to discuss possibilities for interop # 10:07 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next the_frey, bblfish, bblfish_, jasnell and jasnell_ joined the channel
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# 16:12 elf-pavlik rhiaro: if you can, please let me know ASAP if you and sandro can make WebEx calling out to me, for now based on email reply from Arnaud it doesn't sound promissing :( # 16:14 Arnaud elf, can't you use something like skype to call in? # 16:17 elf-pavlik Arnaud: friend made an account (with some calling credits) available for me but now it doesn't have enough left to make another call, I guess I may end up IRC only for now # 16:20 Arnaud I guess it's hard to function in this world without any money :) # 16:24 elf-pavlik just in thu current *state* of this world, future looks much more promissing since many people work on this issue :) # 16:28 elf-pavlik rhiaro_, I didn't know that! Will give it a try and if it works we can document it on wiki :) # 16:32 aaronpk I don't pay for a phone line or phone number right now tantek joined the channel
# 16:55 elf-pavlik using Google Hangout to call +1 WebEx number seems to work fine, it didn't ask me for 'socl' code yet # 16:56 KevinMarks_ you don't use the socl code, you use the other number that looks like a phone number Shane_ joined the channel
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# 16:57 Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot csarven joined the channel
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# 16:59 Shane_ present+ shanehudson # 17:01 tantek cwebber2 what a coincidence, mine is refusing to connect to wifi # 17:02 sandro I'd say we should just meet F2F, but at the F2F we'll probably spend all our time trying to get the speakerphone to work right. hhalpin joined the channel
# 17:03 tantek may have to request postponing his agenda items to the 2nd half of the meeting in order to switch locations to someplace with a landline # 17:03 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: I don't use google hangouts because I don't want to run the proprietary plugin # 17:03 eprodrom present+ eprodrom # 17:03 Zakim Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom # 17:04 Zakim On IRC I see hhalpin, eprodrom, csarven, Zakim, RRSAgent, Shane_, tantek, bblfish, jasnell_, the_frey, elf-pavlik, KevinMarks_, shepazu, Arnaud, wilkie, tommorris_, Loqi, bret, # 17:04 Zakim ... ben_thatmustbeme, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, rhiaro_, cwebber2, wavis, dwhly, pdurbin, oshepherd, rhiaro, slvrbckt, aaronpk, tsyesika, raucao, sandro, trackbot, # 17:04 cwebber2 ok trying to dial in, I have some things to update on when it comes to the social api conversation, but may be via text # 17:05 tantek yeah, giving up on captive portal support on iOS9 - totally broken. DO NOT UPGRADE to iOS9 if you have an iOS device - it's wifi support is fundamentally broken. # 17:05 aaronpk had a moment of panic that I forgot to post those last week # 17:05 rhiaro_ ... hearing no objections, resolved approval of minutes # 17:05 tantek Arnaud, if possible, please postpone my agenda items to second half of call - am going to switch locations to get on a landline. # 17:05 rhiaro_ ... We have changed our plans for next f2f, initially scheduled for TPAC but it is now in SF beginning of december # 17:05 rhiaro_ ... There is a wiki page for this. Despite announcing this last week not many people have responded # 17:06 rhiaro_ ... Please indicate on wiki if you plan to participate # 17:06 rhiaro_ ... The expectation is that tantek will host at Mozilla office in SF # 17:06 rhiaro_ ... It's important to know if we will fit in there # 17:06 rhiaro_ ... If you do'nt know for sure, say that on the wiki page # 17:07 rhiaro_ ... We should talk about WebEx. There have been issues, people have been having trouble calling in # 17:07 rhiaro_ ... Evan mentioned that webex has a whole bunch of local numbers that peopel should be able to use in other parts of the world # 17:07 rhiaro_ ... We are going to try to get you the link with the call in number # 17:07 rhiaro_ ... elf has managed to join today using Hangouts. There are options, we just need to document them # 17:07 elf-pavlik "The only call-in number supported by the MIT/WebEx instance is the one with the +1 country code: +1.617.324.0000" # 17:08 rhiaro_ ... We'll gather all the information and update the wiki page and copy it into future agendas so it's readily available # 17:08 aaronpk elf-pavlik, it looks like the webex client can call you at any international number once you connect via the web client # 17:09 rhiaro_ ... We agreed to publish spec with a new license, unfotunately this has been a pain for james, the tooling has not been updated completely yet # 17:09 rhiaro_ ... We have been working to get the publication tool updated to accommodate the new license. It's a chain of things, things keep breaking # 17:09 rhiaro_ ... We're still working on it, it's not published yet, even though the document itself is read # 17:09 rhiaro_ jasnell: The core draft is published, I'm working on the vocabulary draft right now # 17:10 tsyesika I'm finding the webex client isn't working for me either FWIW # 17:10 rhiaro_ jasnell: I'm working on the vocabulary one now, I'm getting some weird errors, trying to figure out now # 17:10 rhiaro_ Arnaud: I can confirm the core spec has been published, just put a link ^ # 17:10 rhiaro_ ... That's good news. Good chance we'll get the rest out. # 17:11 rhiaro_ eprodrom: Are we going to ahve any further problems, or will we do more monthly drafts as expected? # 17:11 aaronpk elf-pavlik once you enter the meeting it has a button to call you. no host code needed # 17:12 rhiaro_ jasnell: assuming we get the process down it should be fine. The tools have been getting in the way. Once we've got through it once, then it should be much more regular # 17:12 rhiaro_ ... Once the tools are fixed, every other group can use that # 17:12 elf-pavlik oh, true! in my case i need someone else to call me since i can't run webex client # 17:12 rhiaro_ ... We should talk about what's next for the specification # 17:13 rhiaro_ ... There has been discussion and progress with text, but we require more than just a text document # 17:13 rhiaro_ ... There is an exit criteria for CR, we invite the world to implement and gather implementation reports, usually using the test suite # 17:14 rhiaro_ ... People can generate reports using the test suites against their implementation, send reports back, someone cosolidates the reports and we use this to justify that the spec can got to proposed rec # 17:14 rhiaro_ ... So the two aspects here that are important are the test suite and the plans to implement # 17:14 rhiaro_ ... Everybody knows we have had an effort made by IBM to start a test suite, but I was hoping there would be peopel who can help out and take it to the next step. We haven't seen that happen. It's unclear at this point who is planning to implement it # 17:15 rhiaro_ ... We have been having discussion, we are starting to be uncomfortable with the situation # 17:15 rhiaro_ eprodrom: I'd like to discuss the timeframe that we're in right now. We've been discussing among chairs, but I put it on the proposed agenda items for f2f, that we'll be discussing the progress of AS2.0 and what our way forward is # 17:15 rhiaro_ ... We'll need to make a decision if we've had enough progress with that by the f2f to justify going to CR # 17:15 rhiaro_ ... If we can't justify it, we need to discuss alternatives # 17:16 rhiaro_ ... Do we continue to work on it after the f2f, if ther'es progress we can postpone and make the decision later. # 17:16 rhiaro_ ... Another is to decide not to publish AS2.0 as a CR. That would mean we could either not publish it at all, or we could publish it as a Note # 17:16 rhiaro_ ... Means that it's kind of a suggestion/idea/best practice, but hasn't been throught he rigorous process a CR goes through # 17:17 rhiaro_ ... I think that the things we're looking for by f2f are fluid, not a checklist: # 17:17 rhiaro_ ... We have two implementations, both by jasnell, JS and Java implementations # 17:17 rhiaro_ ... Both open source implementations, but we need to have a few implemenations in order to go to CR # 17:17 rhiaro_ ... The second thing is expressions of intent to implement # 17:17 rhiaro_ ... Companies or existing projects that say yes we've reviewed the document and we intend to implement this # 17:17 rhiaro_ ... Ideally it will be folks who have already AS1.0, they're the most likely to got o AS2.0 # 17:18 rhiaro_ ... And then the last thing that we need is a test suite # 17:18 rhiaro_ ... This would ideally be something we could let implementors use on their own, that they could use to publish their implementation report # 17:18 rhiaro_ ... We do have the test tool, the validator for producers # 17:18 rhiaro_ ... We need to define what the steps are with consumers # 17:18 rhiaro_ ... How do we validate a consumer of activitystreams?] # 17:19 rhiaro_ ... Some are of the opinion we are documenting the state of the industry. If we get to the f2f and there haven't been changes outside our group, our job is to represent that external reality and make our decision based on that # 17:19 rhiaro_ ... There are others who feel that as a WG we can be pushing this forward and it seems that we have a few clear paths to go forward # 17:20 rhiaro_ ... I think the test suite is something we can bring to the table # 17:20 rhiaro_ ... Those who are planning to implement, free open source implenenations, will definitely move us forward # 17:20 rhiaro_ ... We have 2 months to go forward. For those interested in seeing it get to CR, we have work to do # 17:20 rhiaro_ ... THis is my call to action to get us starting to do this work # 17:21 rhiaro_ Arnaud: What we're tryign to tell everybody is that we are concerned we don't see much activity on those axis. We need to look at this seroiusly and come to the f2f with expression of support or not # 17:21 rhiaro_ ... So we know if we are moving forward or not, or what the alternatives are # 17:21 rhiaro_ cwebber: I was working on an AS2.0 representation library, and having worked on it it made me think that the most technical aspect of it is the optional requirement of JSON-LD. Otherwise mostly it's just a serialisation in JSON # 17:22 rhiaro_ ... So that really makes me wonder what a test suite would look like # 17:22 rhiaro_ ... We've discussed this before, nobody gave a clear answer # 17:22 rhiaro_ ... There's not much to test unless you actually do something with it # 17:22 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:22 rhiaro_ ... unless you submit it to some API or something # 17:22 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask cwebber2 if he used AS 2.0 extensibility # 17:22 rhiaro_ ... otherwise i'ts just json objects structured in a specific way. What is there to actually test? # 17:23 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: Question for chris: I wonder if you use some accessibility? You just use provided context, or you use other terms not in AS2 vocab? # 17:23 rhiaro_ cwebber: I'm not interested in talking about my own implementation for this part of the call. But I ended up hitting the point where I wanted to implement types, and if we did have the option to extend with JSON-LD I needed to write a JSON-LD expander, so I did # 17:23 rhiaro_ ... Is extension the thign that we're testing? What are we writing the test suit efor? # 17:24 rhiaro_ eprodrom: I want to answer that. I'm not sure if we want to go into that in depth in thsi call. Maybe we could start developing a wiki page here ^ # 17:24 hhalpin Apologies guys, was getting the deal re WebEx from Wendy and W3C Management - have a brief update. TL;DR If group has consensus, moving to Mumble is OK if there is group consensus # 17:24 rhiaro_ ... Two sides to testing, one is to see if producers are producing valid output # 17:24 rhiaro_ ... THe second is to make sure consumers are 'understanding' what the input is # 17:24 rhiaro_ ... I've been trying to look into some of the other test suites for other document formats # 17:25 rhiaro_ ... I'd like to see us produce something ideally.. soem sort of test driver that produces correct output # 17:25 rhiaro_ ... So we can test consumers. Somtehing like a commandline test driver so you can fire it at a library and let it parse a document and produce certain output # 17:25 rhiaro_ ... So for example, ask what's the type of this activity, and it should emit the correct type # 17:25 hhalpin agenda+ WebEx update # 17:25 rhiaro_ ... What is the object of this activity, should emit the correct object. I think that might be ag ood way to do this test suite. # 17:26 rhiaro_ Arnaud: james, can you tell peopel what the validator JP developed, what kind of tests does it do? # 17:26 rhiaro_ jasnell: THe intent of the tests was basic validation fo the syntax # 17:26 rhiaro_ ... Is it valid JSON? Is it valid JSON-LD? Are the values of the activitystreams valid? # 17:26 rhiaro_ ... eg. are dates correct. Are the values expected. # 17:26 ben_thatmustbeme i'm sure the validator will probably need to be updated as things have changed since then # 17:26 rhiaro_ ... Really just a format validator as opposed to a test suite # 17:27 rhiaro_ jasnell: If all we have is the data format, that's all we can test, is if it's valid # 17:27 rhiaro_ Arnaud: Except if there are constraints beyond the syntax that we want to test. But I don't think we have many of those. # 17:28 rhiaro_ jasnell: Evan's point about giving it those scenarios and test if they're valid, eg. Sally uploaded a photo, there are only ac ertain number of ways that can be encoded, we can test if that works properly # 17:28 rhiaro_ Arnaud: Anything else? Otherwise evan's suggestion is a good one. I inviet everyone who has an interest in this to follow on with a discussion [on the wiki] # 17:29 rhiaro_ Arnaud: elf-pavlik, I believe you added this, links broken # 17:29 rhiaro_ ... If there is a problem with the links, we don't need to use call time to discuss this # 17:29 elf-pavlik i didn't add it to agenda! i just fixed links after seeing it # 17:30 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: The point I added about relevance to as2.0 vocabulary to social api, I would like to clarify if there's a strict requirement to use vocabulary in social api and federation, or if there will be another vocabulary # 17:30 rhiaro_ ... I think we may have to wait to finalise the vocabularly until we know what we will use in the social api and federation # 17:31 rhiaro_ ... I would like clarity on the approach. Separate vocabulary for api and federation, or we want to make sure to include everything in AS2.0 vocabulary? tantek joined the channel
# 17:31 rhiaro_ eprodrom: I think this is a concern that we don't even have consensus that we're going to use JSON in our social api, much less that we're going to use AS2.0 or JSON-LD. I don't think this makes any sense. I think if we're going to use AS2.0 we need to just make it go forward rather than holding off # 17:32 rhiaro_ ... I think of the spec that we have, by far the one we have farthest along is AS2.0 # 17:32 rhiaro_ ... I don't want to wait for social API to get AS2.0 out # 17:32 hhalpin In particular, new vocabularies can be sent to an IG to be developed as needed. # 17:33 rhiaro_ Arnaud: We were just talking about the challenges we are having with moving AS2.0 forward, if we tie it to something even less defined that makes it even harder # 17:33 rhiaro_ sandro: Is the question, are we committing the API to using AS2.0, or is it okay to design the API in such a way that it can use something other than AS2.0? # 17:33 Zakim sees hhalpin, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:33 rhiaro_ ... Iw ould be uncomfortable with saying the API has to use *only* activitystreams # 17:34 tantek I think AS2 compat is important, but not requiring AS2 # 17:34 rhiaro_ ... Okay to accept activitystreams, but not *only* # 17:34 ben_thatmustbeme sandro, i think the original question was only the vocabulary match, not that the API use AS2 # 17:34 elf-pavlik q+ re: possibility of removing API and Federation related terms from AS2.0 Vocabulary # 17:34 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 17:35 rhiaro_ sandro: Are implementations required to accept AS2.0, which I could live with, or required to *only* accept AS2, which I could not live with # 17:35 rhiaro_ hhaplin: Not *only*. Reasonable case to say it should accept at least AS2, but could also accept other things # 17:35 rhiaro_ ... AS2 in addition to other things, like pure RDF or microformats # 17:35 rhiaro_ sandro: If it turns out that AS2 doesn't go to rec, we can't say you MUST accept AS2 # 17:35 rhiaro_ eprodrom: Of the 3 candidates we put together, only of them uses AS2 # 17:36 hhalpin Just to ask, "Would anyone be uncomfortable to be accepting AS2? *with other syntaxes being possible to accept?" # 17:36 rhiaro_ ... I agree with harry that it feels that the charter is we have the social data syntax, and an api that uses that syntax. If we went with an api that does not use that syntax, it would be pretty remarkable, we would have to justify it # 17:36 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:36 rhiaro_ ... I don't think that's a settled decision in this WG # 17:36 rhiaro_ ... If we do not take AS2 to CR then we need to look at the purpose of this group and if we have a mandate to go forward with API and federation protocols that do not use an existing syntax # 17:37 hhalpin I would say it should accept AS2 (assuming it is a Rec) and can accept other syntax choices, with the other two being pure unadulterated RDF and another being microformats # 17:37 rhiaro_ ... It's not 100% required, it's in not in requirements or user stories, but is strongly suggested yb going to CR with AS2 # 17:37 rhiaro_ ... Not making it exclusive, we want extensibility, but making a strong part of what the API is would be a good architectural decision # 17:38 rhiaro_ tantek: Certainly AS2 is the most mature of all the different technologies and charter areas that we've been pursuing. Like evan, I'm conerned that if we're not going to make progress with AS2 then we need to take a hard look at the purpose of this group # 17:38 rhiaro_ ... On the other hand, regarding API candidates, one of the strong candidates which is micropub (strong on the basis of numerous deployed implementations interoperating clients and servers) does not reuqire AS2 # 17:39 rhiaro_ ... I think there is potential for compatibility with AS2 # 17:39 rhiaro_ ... One of the reasons I followed up with post-type-discovery is to explore areas for compatibility # 17:39 rhiaro_ ... I'm not concerned with being bound to AS2. I'd rather have a working proven API than one that is bound to previous decisions # 17:39 rhiaro_ ... But I"d like to see how we can make all these peices work together # 17:39 rhiaro_ Arnaud: It seems lik there is agreement that we shouldn't tie the two together # 17:39 rhiaro_ ... It's still unclear what the protocol/API is going to be # 17:40 rhiaro_ ... Best if it could leverage AS2 somehow, to which degree is less to be defined # 17:40 rhiaro_ ... I think it would help to know more about what is oging on with social api before we go deeper into this # 17:40 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:40 rhiaro_ ... We have several people working on the social api # 17:40 rhiaro_ ... If the compromise really worked, maybe all these questions would be answered # 17:41 rhiaro_ cwebber: I think there are several things I'd like to update on that front # 17:41 rhiaro_ eprodrom: I don't want to move off this topic... elf's original proposal is that we hold off on publishing vocabulary until api and federation are better defined # 17:41 elf-pavlik if you would like to speak about API, i can scribe for a bit! # 17:42 elf-pavlik rhiaro if you would like to speak about API, i can scribe for a bit! # 17:42 rhiaro_ tantek: what are we talking about not publishing? # 17:42 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: cwebber has everything I want to say, I think :) # 17:42 hhalpin PROPOSAL: ActivityVocabulary not published until API and Federation are mature? # 17:42 hhalpin not sure if I captured it right # 17:42 rhiaro_ Arnaud: The question is, if the api is going to align with AS2, do we hold off on publishing AS2 vocab until they're better defined? # 17:42 hhalpin The counter proposal would be # 17:43 rhiaro_ tantek: we have a new draft published right? So this is about the next draft? # 17:43 cwebber2 -1 on not publishing AS 2.0 until the other things are out # 17:43 hhalpin PROPOSAL: Publish ActivityVocabulary and AS2.0 independently of any progress on Social API and Federation. # 17:43 rhiaro_ ... Are we planning to publish vocab on it's own independant of status of API work, or want to work for API to solidify to publish # 17:43 Zakim sees hhalpin, cwebber on the speaker queue # 17:43 tantek keep publishing AS WDs - I really don't understand the question # 17:43 rhiaro_ ... This has come up beofre, I'd like to come a decision on it # 17:44 elf-pavlik -1 if we put API and Federated related terms in AS2.0 Vocabulary # 17:44 rhiaro_ hhaplin: Alternate proposal is to wait until we get API and federation more solid # 17:44 cwebber2 (+1 to understanding better about the format stuff, however this is a separate topic) # 17:44 rhiaro_ hhaplin: Which do we prefer, negative or positive? # 17:44 hhalpin PROPOSAL: Publish ActivityVocabulary and AS2.0 independently of any progress on Social API and Federation. # 17:44 tantek PROPOSAL: keep publishing AS WDs (at least) once a month as previously agreed in the WG! # 17:44 rhiaro_ Arnaud: W're on the second: to publish without waiting # 17:44 elf-pavlik -1 if we put API and Federated related terms in AS2.0 Vocabulary # 17:45 rhiaro_ ... Not talking about publishing anything right now, the plan moving forward # 17:45 cwebber2 I do think we should figure out if AS is a *requirement* for the API # 17:45 jasnell the question is about whether or not AS 2.0 can move forward as a Note or CR independently of the API being done # 17:45 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: Some of the terms are related to API and federation. Terms like I've listed on agenda page, like paging and audience targeting # 17:46 jasnell given that we don't even have an API Editor's Draft, it would be insane to tie AS 2.0 progress to API progress. # 17:46 rhiaro_ ... I would like to clarify that if some of those terms are part of API or federation, if we want to publish AS2 we should remove terms that are not specific to modelling data # 17:46 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:46 jasnell if the API needs additional terms, then it can define those as extensions to AS 2.0 # 17:46 cwebber2 okay, we can iterate on that as we get closer to understanding that # 17:46 rhiaro_ ... If we want to publish it, I would make an issue about removing terms that are API specific # 17:46 Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss hypothetical federation concerns # 17:46 eprodrom Sorry about interrupting cwebber2 # 17:46 hhalpin I'm ok with adding vocabs as extensions later when we get federation and API more mature, but not holding up AS2 # 17:46 rhiaro_ tantek: I think that without a concrete federation proposal that has something that's workable/working, this discussion doesn't make any sense # 17:46 rhiaro_ ... It's just stop-energy against AS2, I object to that # 17:47 rhiaro_ ... To object to update to AS2 is counterproductive # 17:47 rhiaro_ ... If you really believe that federation requires that kind of vocabulary then go work on a federation proposal that uses that vocabularly # 17:47 elf-pavlik I don't object updates but going to CR with API and Federation terms # 17:47 rhiaro_ ... It's a waste of time to say stop this other work because it *might* use this vocabulary # 17:47 cwebber2 okay, there's a valid kind of point toward's elf's point, I'll comment a bit towards that # 17:47 rhiaro_ Arnaud: I don't think he's saying 'stop', just that we should synchronise work before CR # 17:48 rhiaro_ tantek: If he believes in that vocabulary requirement he should produce a draft that demonstrates that # 17:48 rhiaro_ ... Saying deliverable might use it so lets wait to sync is unreasonable # 17:48 rhiaro_ Arnaud: we're very close to consensus, but not going to call it resolved to respect elf's objection # 17:48 rhiaro_ ... if we get to a point where we get to CR, we might have t move forward to overrule elf's objection, as most of group is in favour # 17:49 rhiaro_ ... Before we run out of time, move to social api # 17:49 rhiaro_ ... The whole conversation about AS2.0 and whether that's linked to standard stuff.. when I was in Boston over the weekend I talked to people in MediaGoblin community and others in this group, and had a lot of thoughts # 17:50 tsyesika I'd also like to see discussed the Webex/mumble issue hhalpin added to the agenda, I am only participating via text as I had WebEx issues # 17:50 rhiaro_ ... I think elf is right, we do need to figure out if AS2.0 is linked, but that's a whole call in itself, so lets not do that this week # 17:50 rhiaro_ ... But the other side, int erms of implementation, tsyesika is close to landing a massive rearchitecting of MediaGoblin so we can support federation # 17:50 rhiaro_ ... THis has been holding this back, it's nearing actually working. This was all set up from the original plan of working towards pump API server to server stuff happening # 17:51 rhiaro_ ... Confident in this happening by the end of the year # 17:51 rhiaro_ ... Then we can move to AS2.0, which is then really not far way from ActivityPump # 17:51 rhiaro_ ... That work is starting to get to the point where we're going to see some real results # 17:51 rhiaro_ ... There's been some conversations in pump.io community about management, and ActivityPump version # 17:51 wilkie I'll have to update my mediagoblin instance and play :) # 17:51 rhiaro_ ... I've been working on implementaiton this summer, and got caught up yak-shaving, implementing JSON-LD # 17:52 rhiaro_ ... Got a lot of interesting audience feedback at FSF talk this weekend # 17:52 rhiaro_ ... I also talked to the person from OwnCloud (self hosted filesharing, calendaring, etc) which has a huge userbase # 17:53 rhiaro_ ... It would be really big if we got federation working and agreed on a standard # 17:53 eprodrom That's great news! # 17:53 rhiaro_ ... He's going to go through the process of joining the group, I endorse him # 17:53 hhalpin Great news re MediaGobliN! # 17:53 rhiaro_ ... I did talk to others in the group, and will send an email # 17:53 sandro cwebber2, do you know if the owncloud person was talking about joining as a W3C member or an IE? # 17:53 rhiaro_ ... So just wanted to update about MediaGoblin progress # 17:53 Shane_ That sounds great :) # 17:53 hhalpin Definitely would support ownCloud joining # 17:53 rhiaro_ Arnaud: You've been talking about federation API as if it's different from client API # 17:53 rhiaro_ ... People have argued in the past that the distinction is meaningless # 17:54 rhiaro_ cwebber: For MEdiaGoblin's implementation they have to be different. As an example implementation, there are two different steps # 17:54 eprodrom I'm already on! # 17:54 rhiaro_ ... It's true that there is a distinction between client-server and server-server, as we had to re-engineer stuff to do server-server # 17:55 rhiaro_ ... However it's false becasue the mechanism of server-server and client-server look basically the same # 17:55 hhalpin This has become a rather dialectical :) # 17:55 hhalpin Nonetheless, this is very interesting news to get from an implementer that supports the case for keeping one API. # 17:55 rhiaro_ ... I think it would be dumb to seperate into two specs; it reads much more coherantly when you describe how these things work together # 17:55 hhalpin And one deliverable is *optional* BTW # 17:55 rhiaro_ Arnaud: what I think is important - the fact that there are two deliverables on the charter does not meaen we need two different documents # 17:56 rhiaro_ ... Not a 1-1 mapping between deliverables and documents # 17:56 hhalpin I.e. federation was viewed as optional on purpose. # 17:56 rhiaro_ eprodrom: Two questions - you're implementing pump.io API and federation? # 17:56 rhiaro_ eprodrom: Since we don't yet have social api/federation specified, just wanted to clarifiy. # 17:56 rhiaro_ ... Second question, for implementation, would be useful to have python library that can consume and produce AS2.0. Is that something that's part of these next steps for MediaGoblin, and something youc ould share? # 17:57 tsyesika Arnaud: I and others have struggled joining over the last few months due to the changes # 17:57 rhiaro_ cwebber: I think that's possible. Need to talk to tsyesika. I'm optimistic. Was thinking when you said earlier that we do a commandline test suite, it might not be too hard to write that as a little python application. Something like that might end up happening. # 17:57 tantek Arnaud - can we assign the WebEx issues to the chairs to handle offline? # 17:58 rhiaro_ ... Fight for the last few minutes as to waht we should talk about # 17:58 Zakim sees calling-in, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 17:58 rhiaro_ ... On WebEx, there is additional information we can add. We will take this offline. Look ofr information, we are aware there are challenges # 17:58 rhiaro_ hhalpin: I was just discussing this with Wendy Seltzer. Other groups have had this issue. No other group has resolved it successfully. But as long as the group has consensus on what software and everyone can use it, it is okay to swtich off webex # 17:59 cwebber2 sandro: I sent him an email about the process of Invited Expert # 17:59 rhiaro_ ... So if we want to swtich to Mumble, that's fine by w3c # 17:59 rhiaro_ Arnaud: We should try and make this work, not that I"m opposed to soemthing else, but we have addtional information we can try first # 17:59 cwebber2 sandro: if he should do something else, please let me know # 17:59 rhiaro_ Arnaud: tantek, what do you want to update us on? # 17:59 rhiaro_ tantek: I provided editors draft for review last week. Proposal is to accept post-type-discovery as an editors draft for WG # 18:00 rhiaro_ ... You were given a week to review that, so that's the proposal # 18:00 rhiaro_ ... If it's accepted, I'll move to w3c wiki and move to github for issues and discussion # 18:00 rhiaro_ Proposal: Accept post-type-discovery as an Editors draft for this WG # 18:00 aaronpk there was quite a bit of feedback after the call last week, changes have been incorporated # 18:00 rhiaro_ tantek: After the call last time people asked for discussion/participation, spec has been updated since then based on feedback # 18:01 Shane_ I've not read it fully yet but it definitely sounds useful to me # 18:01 hhalpin +1 but would be good to read it # 18:01 rhiaro_ Arnaud: Next week we need to give this fair amount of time to get to the bottom of this # 18:02 rhiaro_ ... Sorry tantek, we're not going to resolve this now # 18:02 wilkie this makes me feel like an explicit type field is necessary haha # 18:02 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek # 18:02 tsyesika rhiaro_: thanks for scribing, made it easy for me to follow the meeting realtime despite my WebEx issues # 18:02 tantek elf-pavlik: you had a week to review - could you provide your specific feedback rather than just asking for "more discussion" ? # 18:03 wilkie 15 steps to decide an object type based on some arbitrary fields being present seems flimsy from an extensibility and a robustness point of view # 18:03 KevinMarks_ wilkie: what si flimsy in practice is explicit object types that are invisible # 18:04 aaronpk even facebook and twitter don't have explicit object types # 18:04 tantek elf-pavlik: note that commenting doesn't stop when moving to w3c wiki, this is just about accepting it as an *editor's* draft since it's a resolution to one of the group's actions/issues! # 18:04 tantek elf-pavlik: I expect feedback/iterations to continue while working on it in the group # 18:05 wilkie what is the difference between this algorithm and an explicit field that says what it is meant to be rendered as? except for the complexity of it. # 18:05 KevinMarks_ the assumption that objects fit into hierarchies is at odds with how people perceive the world # 18:06 KevinMarks_ we actaully think of things as matching various prototypes to different degrees # 18:06 wilkie besides, a 15-step algorithm is an ordering anyway, but that doesn't matter. a type is a type. not necessarily describes any subtypes. # 18:06 wilkie if you don't understand that explicit type, it's a 'note' # 18:07 KevinMarks_ this draft models that process more empirically than requiring upfront labelling according to an existing model # 18:07 wilkie not sure what you gain with this algorithm, unless it is a fallback to an unknown explicit type. but the algorithm is too specific for that. # 18:07 wilkie how do you add new types to the algorithm? what would that process be? # 18:08 KevinMarks_ you gain the ability to interpret things that have not been explicitly labelled according to your world model # 18:08 KevinMarks_ the process would be comparing examples and seeing where the decision point is # 18:08 elf-pavlik it also diesn't have links to AS2.0 drafts even that it makes it a normative reference # 18:08 tantek wilkie - so far based on publishing experience and evidence # 18:09 tantek elf-pavlik: a-ha was waiting for today's publication # 18:10 KevinMarks_ combined photo and checkin being an example that is under discussion tilgovi joined the channel
# 18:13 KevinMarks_ having written a lot of crawlers, you start out with supposedly clear divisions and end up with heuristics. Documenting and converging heuristics is a good idea. # 18:13 wilkie "Q: What about a reply that includes a photo?" "A: It should show up as a "reply" and not be in a user's published feed of their photos." # 18:13 wilkie it's this kind of thing where you state How Things Are by "experience" where I feel you tend to over-specify and over-commit to user experience # 18:14 eprodrom So, I just sent an email to the mailing list # 18:14 eprodrom Not sure if it's appropriate to post to IWC wiki or not since it's not about the document itself # 18:14 wilkie every time loqi links to that I get scared a bit # 18:15 eprodrom Here are my main concerns # 18:15 eprodrom * Does it fit with our charter? In other words, can we argue that taking on this work as part of the WG is related to the work that we're supposed to be doing? # 18:16 eprodrom * Do we have the bandwidth for it? As a working group, do we have the time and attention to work on this document and move it forward? # 18:16 tantek eprodrom: it fits within the charter as its part of resolving an issue for AS2! # 18:16 eprodrom * How does it relate to our other deliverables? Is it a replacement for the JSON-based social data syntax, or kind of a preprocessing best practice? # 18:16 tantek eprodrom: it's a small document, and I have the bandwidth to work on it # 18:16 eprodrom * What are our success criteria? Are we intending to publish this as a Note or Recommendation? Or is it there to inform implementers of the other specs? Or are there other goals for continued work with it? # 18:17 tantek it's not a replacement for the JSON-based social data syntax, if anything it helps generate it # 18:17 eprodrom * Who will work on the document? Who will be shepherding this format? # 18:17 eprodrom Sounds like we have an answer to that last one, which is great # 18:17 elf-pavlik tantek, I recommend taking with rhiaro about some major differences between how Microformats vocab and AS2.0 vocab work, I guess she understand them best out of all of us here # 18:17 eprodrom And sorry for the copy-and-paste to the channel # 18:17 eprodrom KevinMarks_: thx good point # 18:17 tantek eprodrom: next step after editor's draft is to publish as a WD. eventual destination whether NOTE or REC will be up to implementation experience and WG # 18:18 tantek it's definitely intended as a spec for implementers, so that we can get interop on Post Type Discovery for implementations that work without explicit typing # 18:19 elf-pavlik tantek, do you realize it doesn't work with current AS2.0 vocab? # 18:19 tantek eprodrom: no problem re: copy and paste - thank you for providing that in the channel! # 18:19 eprodrom tantek: no problem # 18:19 KevinMarks_ eprodrom: mapping existing data into whatever forms we are using is very important # 18:19 tantek elf-pavlik: what "doesn't work?" specifically? # 18:19 KevinMarks_ the documenting of that being lost with the AS1 work was big shame # 18:20 eprodrom I need to run, I'd like to discuss further # 18:20 elf-pavlik i can't offer more clarifications ATM, maybe rhiaro could help? we could discuss it in more depth tomorrow # 18:20 tantek eprodrom: ok - I can add your Qs and the answers above to the FAQ in the document if you are ok with that # 18:20 KevinMarks_ we spent a good chunk of meetings mapping existing social models into AS1, but that never got formally published # 18:21 tantek KevinMarks_: just goes to show, if it's not captured on the web, it may as well have never happened # 18:21 tantek I tried looking in the AS wiki for such things to no avail # 18:21 tantek it's likely lost in scribbles in the AS mailing list # 18:22 elf-pavlik KevinMarks_, do you see any like-of or rsvp (property not Class!) # 18:23 elf-pavlik it only shares as:inReplyTo (with different spelling which this draft doesn't include) # 18:25 elf-pavlik those models have *major* differences so tantek's draft only stays relevant to Microformats vocab # 18:25 tantek elf-pavlik: I think you may be misunderstanding - this draft is showing how implementations can discover the types which can the be treated as AS2 types # 18:25 tantek elf-pavlik: do you have real world publishing examples of AS2 which require type discovery? # 18:25 elf-pavlik since it doesn't use properties existance of which it assumes # 18:26 tantek if you can provide such examples, I'll happily document them and take a look at how to make the algorithm work with them # 18:26 elf-pavlik if you really don't pay attention to supporting AS2.0 why bother including it? # 18:26 tantek elf-pavlik: I don't understand the post types that are discovered are directly compatible with AS2 types # 18:27 elf-pavlik making it Microformats vocab specific simply removes confusion # 18:27 ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: are these issues with it going to editor draft, or are these issues that would be after it goes to editor draft? # 18:28 ben_thatmustbeme though i am working and have not seen all the issues raised here, seems like most of them are things that get hashed out in editting # 18:28 tantek elf-pavlik: better to formalize based on real world publishing practices # 18:28 tantek why formalize based on theory when you can formalize based on practice? # 18:29 tantek elf-pavlik: can you provide a specific example? # 18:30 tantek elf-pavlik: see above I think you're confused. this is more about generating AS2 semantics than consuming them # 18:30 tantek since AS2 semantics currently requires explicit typing # 18:31 tantek elf-pavlik: see above about your confusion - you're asking questions that don't make sense # 18:33 trackbot ISSUE-45 -- Conflicts between json-ld and mf2 examples -- open # 18:34 elf-pavlik "The Microdata, RDFa and Microformats examples included in this document are purely informative and may not currently reflect actual implementation experience or accepted best practices for each format. These alternate serializations may be removed from future iterations of this document and moved to a separate informative WG Note." # 18:35 KevinMarks_ in this case, hat like does represent actual implementation experiences # 18:35 elf-pavlik KevinMarks_, but you don't find like-of in *normative* AS2.0 Vocabulary # 18:36 elf-pavlik one can consider it 'background noise', at least as of its current state # 18:36 KevinMarks_ that implies the vocabulary needs changing to match reality to me # 18:37 elf-pavlik at this moment, as of nomative part of the draft AS2.0 DOES NOT include *like-of* hhalpin joined the channel
# 18:38 ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: this goes back to the topic today, it may be that not everything need use AS2 vocabulary # 18:38 KevinMarks_ you are fundamentally misunderstanding the difference between standard as documentation and standard as legislaton # 18:39 tantek I think you're mistaken in calling it 'background noise' # 18:39 ben_thatmustbeme this whole discussion is pointless unless the group is accepting it as something it is working on # 18:40 tantek elf-pavlik: why? I am open to people providing other syntaxes without explicit typing # 18:40 tantek rather, providing *real world publishing examples of* other syntaxes # 18:40 aaronpk this discussion actually demonstrates that it should be accepted by the group :) # 18:40 tantek elf-pavlik: yes, and I asked you to provide real world publishing examples # 18:41 tantek elf-pavlik: I prefer direct evidence, please provide URLs with actual syntax being published # 18:42 tantek elf-pavlik: which syntax is that URL evidence for? # 18:42 elf-pavlik if this draft doesn't support AS2.0 (as of current state), why to cause confusion by including it there? # 18:43 aaronpk elf-pavlik: I'm pretty sure tantek has repeatedly said he is willing to add examples of AS2.0, why are you insisting otherwise? # 18:44 elf-pavlik folks, in many ways i enjoy this dance here but my belly demands Activity with property verb:eat and maybe first i need Activity with property verb:cook # 18:45 tantek please stop saying "doesn't support AS2.0 (as of current state)" when that's no longer true! # 18:45 csarven I'd be interested in seeing an example of delete. Delete as in delete, not update reframed as delete. # 18:46 elf-pavlik tantek, you use non normative background noise with property which DOES NOT exist in normative AS2.0 Vocabulary # 18:46 tantek csarven: what do you think of using 410 for delete? # 18:46 elf-pavlik jasnell, can we please resolve ISSUE-45 to avoid such confusions as we see here? # 18:47 csarven tantek Not opposed to it, but that's rather out-of-band, i.e., everything else is self-descriptive # 18:47 elf-pavlik in context of current version of AS2.0 working draft (just published today) which doesn't need to reflect some experience of some peopel # 18:47 tantek csarven: was attempting minimal (re)invention, by re-using 410 # 18:47 rhiaro_ So... point of post-type-discovery is if you are a consumer, and you understand AS2 with explicit types, and you consume some data which *doesn't* have explicit types, you use this algorithm to get an explicit type so you can move on # 18:48 tantek csarven: not "out of band" as all other HTTP responses must be accepted also, e.g. 200 # 18:48 elf-pavlik now really gone for Activity with action verb:cook and Acitivity with action verb:eat (which can support type discovery...) # 18:48 rhiaro_ but if you have a bunch of data which *otherwise* conforms to AS2, just without explicit types, post-type-discovery doesn't actually help for that yet # 18:48 rhiaro_ it does help if the non-typed data you have found is mf2 # 18:49 tantek rhiaro_: right, so I asked for real world publishing examples of "a bunch of data which *otherwise* conforms to AS2, just without explicit types" so that I could specify the algorithm accordingly # 18:49 rhiaro_ In order for post-type-discovery to be complete, would there need to be a path to follow to reach every explicit type in AS2? # 18:49 csarven tantek Like I said, I'm not opposed to 410, but will there be data which states "this is deleted"? # 18:49 tantek rhiaro_: not necessarily - currently the "completeness" of Post Type Discovery is based on evidence of real world publishing practices # 18:50 tantek csarven: likely for display purposes yes, just as HTTP 404 responses typically include HTML that says something about the Page not found # 18:51 tantek rhiaro_: also another reason to not worry about "every explicit type in AS2" is that there is no evidence to suggest all the explicit types in AS2 are needed - that is, I think a lot of them could be dropped based on absence of interest / implementation / publication # 18:51 csarven tantek aaronpk I was hoping for something more "machine-readable" than natural language. So, yes, an explicit property for deleted would go in that direction. # 18:52 tantek csarven: ah ok interesting - so some variant of h-entry? # 18:52 tantek as in you want the 410 page to have the data in it? # 18:52 rhiaro_ tantek: sure, I agree that not everything in AS2 is needed. I meant, assuming that the final result of AS2 is a version in which core things remain # 18:52 rhiaro_ So, to me right now, post-type-discovery reads as a bridge between non-AS2 publishers and AS2 consumers. Which seems very useful - but is that in the scope of the group? # 18:53 tantek csarven: that makes sense to me. I'd likely store such "deleted" h-entrys myself in my own storage as tombstones of deleted entries! # 18:53 tantek which my CMS would use to then know to return a 410 response # 18:53 csarven tantek I don't want anything in particular. I'm just trying to understand whether the proposal or what it is headed towards has concerned or working on a solution that is *to be an alternative* for how typing is derived in AS2 (I'm not sure at this moment whether the proposal is for AS2 only or everything else... I've only noticed the ISSUE being categorized under AS2) # 18:54 aaronpk I would definitely be interested in adding a "deleted-at" timestamp # 18:55 tantek csarven, yes the proposal is to help any implementation that uses explicit types currently, including any AS2 consumers # 18:55 csarven aaronpk dt-deleted properly for mf2 folks provided that it goes through the mf /process ? ;) (friendly wink.. no worries) # 18:55 tantek csarven: yeah - would need to be added as an experimental proposal, then gather implementation / publishing experience etc. # 18:55 tantek aaronpk: why "deleted-at" when "dt-updated" would likely provide that info? # 18:56 csarven May want to consider dt-inserted (to keep in line with <ins>/<del> I suppose.. but this is for #microformats) # 18:56 tantek or are you seeing value in knowing the last content updated datetime *before* the deletion? # 18:56 tantek csarven: nah, dt-updated is from Atom 1.0 "updated" # 18:56 rhiaro_ yeah I thought we have discussed this before - dt-updated, change content to empty or tombstone content, and 410 for a delete h-entry # 18:57 tantek rhiaro_: right, we had, hence I'm asking (optimistically) if aaronpk somehow has a use-case for separate dt-deleted from dt-updated # 18:57 KevinMarks_ the issue of the 410 being lost once fetched is there, like all status codes # 18:57 aaronpk KevinMarks_: I think I did that intentionally, to "delete" the author as well # 18:57 tantek i'm not opposed to dt-deleted, just trying to understand the use-case driving it # 18:57 aaronpk oh that's a good point, once the HTTP request is done, there is nothing in the storage of the post that indicates it's deleted # 18:57 tantek dt-deleted provides a nice complement to dt-published # 18:58 tantek and there have also been brainstorms about dt-created for offline posts before they are published # 18:58 csarven As rhiaro was trying to rephrase tantek's point earlier; if in the absence of explicit types, one can derive the type via explicit properties -- that sounds reasonable to me. However, two things to consider: 1) whether that alternative is just necessary or not 2) whether that is of interest or should be part of something that the WG needs to deliver. I don't have a strong view on this.. just hoping that it is not overlooked. # 18:58 aaronpk like if i'm storing a copy of tantek's posts, I would need to store the HTTP status code somewhere if there was no "deleted" property # 18:58 KevinMarks_ right, that's the issue - having a marker that this is a tombstone is csarven's point # 18:59 tantek which is a reasonable point - but that could be done with a boolean jaywink joined the channel
# 18:59 tantek point is, how does it justify a separate dt property from dt-updated? # 18:59 KevinMarks_ it could be an explicit type, h-tombstone, but that seems counterproductive # 19:00 ben_thatmustbeme gah, i go to add my site to the indieweb examples of deleted, and there is another page of text to catch up on # 19:00 tantek let's start with the real world question - does anyone who supports "deleted" posts keep track of their datetime deleted *separate* from the last time they updated their content? # 19:00 aaronpk the benefit of the h-entry is consumers that don't understand the "deleted" property or HTTP 410 will likely treat it as an update and replace the text # 19:01 tantek aaronpk: your new site keeps track of the date of deletion? or just the fact that it is deleted? # 19:02 tantek KevinMarks_: "good idea" is not good enough ;) # 19:02 aaronpk yes it creates a log entry of the date of the deletion # 19:02 aaronpk (my new site actually has a separate stream that is a log of everything that has happened on the site) # 19:02 aaronpk not sure i want to add that as an example until it's live # 19:03 aaronpk since I can't back it up with any permalinks right now # 19:03 tantek especially if you document an intent to implement there # 19:04 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: how about you? does your CMS keep track of the date of deletion of the post indepededently from the updated date? # 19:04 aaronpk right, that's how they propagate deletions to clients # 19:05 tantek that's good for immediate feedback/consideration # 19:07 tantek here's a possible use-case for separate deleted vs updated dates: a separate updated date may provide the consuming code enough information to retrieve the last updated version of the post from an (indie) archive, purely by URL + date lookup. # 19:09 tantek however, the question is, is that use-case of sufficient interest to anyone besides say, the Internet Archive? # 19:09 tantek e.g. would you use that to show/freeze the last version of a comment or reply-context of a deleted post? # 19:11 csarven 410 is orthogonal to self-descriptive data. The point of the activity streams is to broadcast or dip into the information as to what happened - and this is at the heart of it. 410 on the other hand is only provided when the resource is requested - and this is a good practice. # 19:12 tantek I think I prefer an explicit h-entry property as well, rather than trying to fake it with <meta http-equiv STATUS 410 > kind of hack # 19:14 rhiaro_ Perhaps if you don't want to provide tombstone content - ie. you just want to nuke the post, but still want to track when that happened, dt-deleted will help a reader to know what's going on better than dt-updated - otherwise it'll just update what it displays to an empty post? Or maybe the reader should know not to display anything if there's no content property... </braindump> nicolagreco joined the channel
# 19:24 KevinMarks_ having a machine readable marker too seems better still, then a client can decide whether to show it or not # 19:24 aaronpk machine readable marker plus human readable fallback # 19:25 KevinMarks_ the human readable fallback also follows the principle of 'to delete something, overwrite it with something else first' # 19:27 tantek human readable fallback *marked up with* machine readable marker # 19:27 tantek tying those two together helps improve data reliability # 19:32 tantek cwebber2: did you find any real world benefits to the added work to support JSONLD? or was it just busywork to satisfy the spec? # 19:33 tantek I think there's a lot of resistance to JSONLD by implementers because it seems like a big YAGNI # 19:33 tantek (especially how strongly it is promoted by those who are not actually implementing it themselves, but for pseudo-architectural reasons) # 19:33 cwebber2 tantek: for me it's useful, because I'm planning on working on something a bit outside the normal realm of "blogpost style federation", which is a little game, and I tried to mock it up, and I couldn't figure out how to do the types # 19:33 cwebber2 I tried also doing a type mapping myself, then realized I was duplicating the expansion work # 19:34 tantek I'm confused, how does "couldn't figure out how to do the types" relate to "useful" for JSONLD at all? # 19:34 cwebber2 tantek: I wanted to be able to nicely expand out what @type expanded to in a flexible way # 19:35 cwebber2 tantek: my *initial* version of it did all the URI mapping manually # 19:35 cwebber2 I think that's more than fine, or even actually not necessary for things just doing the base case of activitystreams # 19:35 cwebber2 you could implement something like pump.io or GNU Social (former StatusNet) in just the base activity # 19:35 cwebber2 and just ignore everything outside of the implied context # 19:36 cwebber2 tantek: but also... I wanted to understand personally if json-ld was really so complex or not. # 19:37 cwebber2 but it's acknowledged to be there, so I wanted a deeper understanding of what putting that in the spec meant # 19:37 cwebber2 so my conclusion is: json-ld is fine once someone already wrote a library for you to use. # 19:37 cwebber2 it'll be trouble if someone is using a library without an existing json-ld implementation # 19:37 tantek that's my worry - if everyone has to depend on a library for JSONLD then it's not really CR worthy # 19:38 tantek especially if the supposed discernible benefits are available independently # 19:38 cwebber2 tantek: HTML is a useful spec that is useful because *someone else did the work* # 19:38 cwebber2 because if I just wanted to do something where everything's basically a blogpost # 19:39 cwebber2 so I think activitystreams 2.0 does it smart: you only get complex when you actually get complex # 19:39 tantek that's better than dumb, but I wouldn't consider it good enough for "smart" :) # 19:39 tantek e.g. AS1 had extensible object-types without JSONLD # 19:40 cwebber2 tantek: the web totally relies on someone doing the hard parts for you already though :) # 19:40 cwebber2 html is too complex if everyone had to implement a parser themselves # 19:40 tantek if extensible object-types (and verbs?) are the use-case, I think we can still make those work without requiring JSONLD # 19:40 tantek cwebber2: however there are numerous HTML parsers - that's the point # 19:40 cwebber2 tantek: json-ld has pretty wide language availability # 19:41 cwebber2 the main problem is I went off in crazy-town by using scheme :) # 19:42 cwebber2 pump.io uses javascript, mediagoblin uses python, so those projects are more mainstream # 19:42 cwebber2 but I wanted to learn things for my own purposes on this one :) # 19:43 cwebber2 I'll tell you, writing a purely functional json-ld parser # 19:44 cwebber2 anyway, I think json-ld is just fine for extensibility, as long as languages have libraries... but python, java, ruby, javascript, php, c# all do # 19:44 cwebber2 and that's most of the languages people use for webdev # 19:44 cwebber2 plus soon, maybe crazy parenthesis addicts might even have something ;) # 19:45 tantek I suppose there will be the question of whether it is necessary for extensiblity or not - seems like a pretty heavyweight price to pay for that # 19:45 tantek good to know at least it meets the "workable" bar # 19:46 tantek (I mean, so did XML, and all the XML extensibility stuff, and look where we are) # 19:46 cwebber2 if you write it yourself, well... in a sense, the api doc for json-ld is just great # 19:46 tantek (and all the XML parsers cross-language etc.) # 19:46 cwebber2 I wrote most of the json-ld code not knowing what I was doing and it still worked ;) # 19:46 cwebber2 and translating from imperative->procedural was the hard part # 19:47 tantek e.g. one of the reasons a lot of us (myself included) gave up on OpenID was because of the "a lot of code" # 19:47 cwebber2 tantek: I think I'd share that concern, but I think smaller implementations already don't need to use extensibility # 19:47 cwebber2 I only went down that path once I decided to experiment on a federated MUD ;) # 19:47 tantek interesting - in indieweb it's the QS stuff that's pushing the edges of extensibility # 19:48 tantek though we have some work on game playing tracking too # 19:49 cwebber2 tantek: notably, I think a lot of things are complex; extracting microformats from html is also a bit too much to ask everyone to write a parser for, but one nice thing is, indieweb already provides that stuff! # 19:49 cwebber2 tantek: I did, I thought about how it would apply and if it could apply to activitypump, and I think it might be able to in this way: # 19:50 cwebber2 basically, some clients may want exactly that kind of "inferred type" stuff # 19:50 cwebber2 you don't want the user to have to think about types if it's a blogpost type submission thing, so that makes sense # 19:50 tantek which is why I think it is appropriate as a WG work item # 19:50 cwebber2 either the client on client->server, or the originating server, can use this to produce a @type # 19:51 cwebber2 so the server to server with activitypump can already have determined it # 19:51 cwebber2 tantek: so I think that's a pretty good route for doing this # 19:51 cwebber2 tantek: note, I grabbed that after only skimming this, but I'm glad to hear you think that's how it should work for an activitypump mapping # 19:51 tantek great - hoping that means you're a +1 with the proposal to take it up in the WG as an editor's draft # 19:51 tantek since Arnaud said we didn't have enough input for resolution this week # 19:52 tantek I'm hoping to proactively discuss with people before next week's telcon # 19:52 cwebber2 tantek: I'm minimum +0, quite possibly at +1, I should probably actually *read* it first. # 19:52 cwebber2 tantek: I think there are some places where this could be useful for some pump clients to implement. # 19:53 tantek the real question is, is it relevant to the WG (charter / other specs) and of interest to WG members? # 19:53 tantek which it sounds like you're saying "yes" to - hence if you find any concerns on that level - please let me know! # 19:53 cwebber2 tantek: I'm not positive if it's of scope, but it's of interest to me. # 19:54 cwebber2 so there's some inclusion within this sphere, whether it fits as a spec under this umbrella, I'm not totally sure, but I like it, and it very well may. # 19:54 tantek cwebber2: cool - well you can certainly work with / on it in # indiewebcamp until/if/when the WG accepts it # 19:54 tantek specifically for all the implementer reasons you pointed out # 19:56 cwebber2 okay, awesome, pump.io group scheduled, now to churn through my email, then write some emails myself! nicolagreco and tilgovi joined the channel
# 21:55 elf-pavlik !tell tantek, if find interest in Microformats -> AS2.0 conversion, https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery seems to provide some steps in that direction, it would still need few extra steps! One should have possibility to convert all data published with Microformats into AS2.0 but to my understanding converting from AS2.0 to Microformat most likely will loose information (sort of gracefully degrade) # 21:55 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next # 21:59 KevinMarks_ I suspect that's backwards, elf-pavlik. as2 has a fixed vocabulary; mf2 has a flexible one. tantek joined the channel
# 22:08 elf-pavlik KevinMarks_, I think we still have a long way to go before all participants of this group will start really understand each other and various technologies represented # 22:11 elf-pavlik As well as everyone can define one's own custom vocab for snowflakes ;) # 22:12 elf-pavlik URI based vocabs recommended by AS2.0 also allow converging terms over time, while non unique string based vocabs like Microformats as of today besides possible collision of indepedently defined properties/types also don't provide path to disover conversion of terms # 22:16 aaronpk you know I have never actually seen any of these vocab namespacing URLs lead to an actual web page. most of the time they are either unresolved domains or 404 pages. # 22:16 aaronpk happy to be shown one that actually goes somewhre # 22:20 cwebber2 but, maybe the future will have more content addressed storage based URIs or something, and less reliance on ICANN overlords # 22:20 aaronpk it's literally peopel not putting up pages that explain the vocab # 22:20 elf-pavlik aaronpk, true! sometimes just put pages for machines and ignore people who request text/html # 22:21 aaronpk my browser would do *something* if there were content there # 22:21 elf-pavlik we experiment with few other people on new vocab and will make sure that it provides HTML pages for people to look at # 22:21 aaronpk but so far you're just telling me there are exmaples and not actually providing any # 22:21 cwebber2 I honestly don't have much experience with vocabs outside of ccrel though # 22:22 cwebber2 that's the only thing I seriously ever worked with and thus paid attention to bblfish joined the channel
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# 22:25 aaronpk good, that's way more than I found last time I looked. (a few years ago) # 22:25 cwebber2 nonetheless I do worry that some day those domains will go down and things will be sad. # 22:26 cwebber2 maybe someday someone will square zooko's triangle in a way that doesn't require people to download a never-ending growing blockchain and then they will point me to it # 22:27 aaronpk but...that relies on w3id.org to stay registered doesn't it? # 22:27 aaronpk that's close enough to the end of unixtime that it'll probably be fine ;) # 22:28 aaronpk all the computers are going to stop working then anyway, then we can all go home # 22:28 elf-pavlik "here are a growing group of organizations that have pledged responsibility to ensure the operation of this website. These organizations are: Digital Bazaar, 3 Round Stones, OpenLink Software, Applied Testing and Technology, Openspring, and Bosatsu Consulting." # 22:30 elf-pavlik aaronpk, do you see any problems with providing HTTP URLs for each property and type defined by Microformats vocab? # 22:30 elf-pavlik this way people who choose to use JSON-LD have straight forward path to use Microformats vocabulary # 22:33 elf-pavlik aaronpk, I star writing cook and eat activities in JSON-LD using AS2.0 with modifications I propose to it # 22:33 cwebber2 tries to think of a python library name for AS 2.0 and unit tests stuff # 22:34 cwebber2 can't think of a python library name? just start with py and mash something together # 22:34 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: ha, that would be awesome. Though I think that should be done in pump.io # 22:35 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: we're having a meeting about moving pump.io to AS 2.0 this thursday # 22:36 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: next up: a openfoodnetwork / openfarmgame mashup ;) # 22:37 elf-pavlik I need to show them examples of activities like: plant, harvest, water, cook, eat ... # 22:37 cwebber2 openfarmgame is not much of a game but it's an interesting proof of concept tessierashpool_ joined the channel
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# 22:39 elf-pavlik can you update it? will the update propagate to subscribers? ;) # 22:40 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: it will update, if I could get the link to work # 22:41 elf-pavlik in next days I will need to get from country side to Paris (most likely hitchhiking), I'll still try to join this meeting! Shane_ joined the channel
# 22:52 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next tommorris_, bret and bblfish joined the channel
# 23:31 tantek !tell elf-pavlik you provide the FOAF Person URL as an example to aaronpk of a vocab URL that actually shows something in a browser, and yet, it provides a good counter example of your assertion that URL based vocabs allow/encourage convergence, because if they did, FOAF Person would have been collapsed back into vCard (prior vocab, more standard). Your faith in URL based vocabs does not bear out in practice. # 23:31 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next wavis joined the channel
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-06]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85853&oldid=85852
elf-pavlik !tell harry will you stay in Paris one of next days, I plan to stay around here for couple more days and we could meet up :) also http://www.xwiki.org team would like to discuss possibilities for interop
KevinMarks_ you don't use the socl code, you use the other number that looks like a phone number
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-social-irc
Shane_ present+ shanehudson
Arnaud Approval of Minutes of 2015-09-29 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-29-minutes
ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk elf-pavlik no it totally calls out: http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/webex-dialout-20151006-101033.png
jasnell Vocabulary spec is published now as well... http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/
rhiaro_ eprodrom: I think this is a concern that we don't even have consensus that we're going to use JSON in our social api, much less that we're going to use AS2.0 or JSON-LD. I don't think this makes any sense. I think if we're going to use AS2.0 we need to just make it go forward rather than holding off
tantek Arnaud, I'm hoping we at least have a few minutes to discuss (accept?) https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-06#Tracking_of_Actions_and_Issues Post Type Discovery for issue 4 and action 35 (follow-up from last week)
csarven tantek I don't want anything in particular. I'm just trying to understand whether the proposal or what it is headed towards has concerned or working on a solution that is *to be an alternative* for how typing is derived in AS2 (I'm not sure at this moment whether the proposal is for AS2 only or everything else... I've only noticed the ISSUE being categorized under AS2)
cwebber2 https://identi.ca/cwebber/note/riVqREL9Sbq_lENokDSQOw <- we'll be having a meeting this thursday on making pump.io move to activitypump and etc, amongst other things