#social 2015-11-10

2015-11-10 UTC
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ben_thatmustbeme
bengo, as i understand it you don't need the password to just dial in, its only if you use the web app
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bengo
ben_thatmustbeme alright. Thanks ben
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ben_thatmustbeme
if it does, we'll all be on just before the meeting
bblfish, jasnell, tilgovi, bengo, tantek, Arnaud, melvster, the_frey and bblfish_ joined the channel
tantek and shevski joined the channel
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tantek
sandro: rhiaro is going to take me into the office for the telcon(s) - perhaps we can share a connection?
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tantek
does anyone here expliicitly enter or designate a "summary" of their posts on their website?
bblfish, jasnell and danbri joined the channel
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rhiaro_
hey cwebber2, I am readin ur docz
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rhiaro_
(finally)
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rhiaro_
(about activipy)
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cwebber2
rhiaro_: ohai!
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Loqi
yay!
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cwebber2
Loqi: :)
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cwebber2
rhiaro_: any feedback you have is most welcome btw :)
eprodrom, kevinmarks and jaywink joined the channel
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kevinmarks
I have some posts that have a summary
tantek joined the channel
the_frey joined the channel
azaroth, csarven and bengo joined the channel
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cwebber2
hello ben_thatmustbeme, and *!
KevinMarks joined the channel
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KevinMarks
I can't phone in today as I'm at sfmusictech
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tantek
can you add yourself to the regrets section?
akuckartz joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
want to create a regrets section, seems to be missing
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tantek
I thought aaronpk was already listed
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jasnell
present+
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tantek
present+ tantek
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tantek
present+ sandro
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tantek
present+ jasnell
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wseltzer
present+ wseltzer
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tantek
present+ rhiaro
RRSAgent joined the channel
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akuckartz
present+ akuckartz
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wseltzer
present+ jasnell,tantek,sandro,wseltzer,rhiaro
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csarven
present+ csarven
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azaroth
Present+ Rob_Sanderson
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wseltzer
to catch those who present+'d before rrsagent arrived
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Arnaud
present+
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wilkie
present+ wilkie
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ben_thatmustbeme
present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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cwebber2
present+ cwebber2
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ben_thatmustbeme
somehow i missed it
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bigbluehat
present+ Benjamin_Young
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ben_thatmustbeme
Rene sent regrets to the list i believe
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cwebber2
I can scribe
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cwebber2
I haven't in a while.
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eprodrom
Arnaud, can I ask a favor?
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Arnaud
fyi, I learned that if you're happy with your irc nickname being used for attendance you can save a few keystrokes by just doing present+
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eprodrom
Can you copy over those agenda items?
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eprodrom
Present+ eprodrom
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wseltzer
zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika,
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cwebber2
I'll scribe
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, akuckartz, KevinMarks, csarven, azaroth, the_frey, tantek, jaywink, eprodrom, jasnell, bblfish, melvster, Arnaud, wilkie, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme,
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Zakim
... wseltzer, akuckartz, shepazu, Rob_Sanderson, Shane_, rene, cwebber2, Benjamin_Young
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Zakim
... bitbear, shepazu, bret, tommorris_, tsyesika, jet, aaronpk, raucao, Loqi, bigbluehat, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, rhiaro_, rrika, Zakim, dwhly, pdurbin, rhiaro, sandro,
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Zakim
... trackbot, wseltzer
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eprodrom
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 10 November 2015
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2
eprodrom: unfortunately I have limited connectivity, may be slow on IRC
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cwebber2
eprodrom: first item is to review/approve last week's minutes
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to ask to review the minutes
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cwebber2
cwebber2: +1
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eprodrom
Proposal: approve minutes for 2015-11-03
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cwebber2
eprodrom: any objections or -1, please say so now
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to call this resolved
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cwebber2
eprodrom: and we're ready to move right along.
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cwebber2
eprodrom: one note about this week's agenda is that we had some agenda items from last week that did not get handled, so according to the FIFO procedure we're following, we have now moved them all to today's agenda?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: is that right Arnaud ?
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cwebber2
Arnaud: reload your page and I think it should look reasonable
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akuckartz
audio arrives here somewhat broken
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cwebber2
eprodrom: first item at top of page is simplified microformats 2 json format, JS2
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk is not here
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tantek
s/js2/jf2
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think we've discussed it, maybe we can review quickly
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cwebber2
Arnaud: aaronpk is not here, we need to roll over
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cwebber2
eprodrom: thanks for reminding me, we'll roll over to next week and address AS 2.0, is james on?
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cwebber2
jasnell: I'm here
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great let's work through our list
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cwebber2
eprodrom: a couple have come from elf, is elf on the call?
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cwebber2
Arnaud: the first few are from last week because elf was not on
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cwebber2
jasnell: I'm pulling it up now to look at the list
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cwebber2
Arnaud: if elf is not on, we will skip again
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ben_thatmustbeme
The Blog object type probably rolls in to the extension vocab discussion
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cwebber2
tantek: didn't see him dial in, don't see him on present list from Zakim
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm not sure we need the proposer to be here to deal with these. should se address now or wait till elf is here? my feeling is to wait, but we may pass off for multiple meetings
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cwebber2
tantek: if james has a succinct resolution to propose, otherwise I'm ok with postponing
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cwebber2
jasnell: I have my own biased opinion, best to postpone
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think that makes sense
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so we wil pass over 221, 223, 208, that brings us to 52
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cwebber2
eprodrom: since this is a pretty contentious one, let's start with 52
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cwebber2
jasnell: the short summary is that the AS spec currently defines an activity media type to identify docs
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cwebber2
jasnell: the argument in the proposal is to provide the json-ld type
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cwebber2
jasnell: with profile
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cwebber2
jasnell: my proposal is to treat them as equal, that the AS2 type SHOULD be treated as equivalent
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cwebber2
jasnell: generally +1'ed, with 2 dissenteres, on the thread
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tantek
but the "must" support is for "application/activity+json" right?
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: there's no requirement on server to say "I want activitystreams"
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azaroth
q+ to disagree with Sandro
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Zakim
sees tantek, azaroth on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
jasnell: to use json-ld media type you have to provide a profile parameter
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cwebber2
sandro: you can't set one on a ? header
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Zakim
sees tantek, azaroth, akuckartz on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
jasnell: you can but many implmenetations don't, it's an optional feature
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/? header/accept header/
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cwebber2
sandro: the spec says you can't put it there, unless I'm wrong
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cwebber2
sandro: so unless I'm wrong, you can't ask for activitystreams from someone who doesn't know that media type
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wilkie
I believe you can put whatever you want in Accept, but it isn't standard
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cwebber2
sandro: you shouldn't do this, but oif you really want to, you're in bad shape
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cwebber2
jasnell: my proposed solution is to treat them as equivalent
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eprodrom
Q?
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Zakim
sees tantek, azaroth, akuckartz on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
as an implementor i don't really want to look for 2 possible types of rel-alternates
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cwebber2
jasnell: with the AS type being a MUST, and equivalency is a SHOULD
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wilkie
as long as it is: ; something = "some string"
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cwebber2
tantek: just to understand.. oh ok james may have just clarified my question
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eprodrom
Ack tantek
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Zakim
sees azaroth, akuckartz on the speaker queue
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wilkie
I like the compromise here
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cwebber2
"application/activity+json" is a MUST, proposing a SHOULD for profile equivalence
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cwebber2
tantek: is that right?
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cwebber2
jasnell: yes
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cwebber2
tantek: I can live with that
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tantek
+0 can live with that
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees azaroth, akuckartz, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack azaroth
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cwebber2
eprodrom: azeroth?
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Zakim
azaroth, you wanted to disagree with Sandro
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Zakim
sees akuckartz, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
azaroth: this is the updated HTTP/1.1 for that bit https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-5.3.2
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cwebber2
azaroth: I disagree with sandro's interpretation... there's clearly a parameter in the media range, don't see why you couldn't fit in a parameter. If that is true though, that's something to keep in mind though
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Zakim
sees akuckartz, eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
azaroth: if we can't do that, there's no point defining an equivalence
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cwebber2
sandro: I think you're right
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Zakim
sees akuckartz, eprodrom, cwebber, jasnell on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: I wouldn't have guessed that was media range
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Zakim
sees akuckartz, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue
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sandro
"The media-range MAY include media type parameters that are applicable to that range. "
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cwebber2
cwebber2: fwiw I think manu said they specifically added profiles for this purpose
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jasnell
the implementation support for content negotiation using parameters is sketchy at best
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eprodrom
ack akuckartz
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
akuckartz: my problem is we've been discussing this for some time now
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cwebber2
akuckartz: in favor of media type and against profile
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cwebber2
akuckartz: all the time one argument was refuted... and once again we have a new argument for resolving this
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cwebber2
akuckartz: we created a wiki page to collect all arguments we have
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, jasnell, cwebber on the speaker queue
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jasnell
there are popular implementations, for instance, that do not properly handle case sensitivity of comparison in parameter values
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jasnell
there are others that ignore parameters entirely
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cwebber2
akuckartz: I suggest we provide new page with reasons for profile
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cwebber2
akuckartz: collect for or against
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cwebber2
akuckartz: last argument was put forward against json-ld media type was problem of list of lists... even that is not against json-ld + profile
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ben_thatmustbeme
I honestly do not care what the media type is so long as it is unique, and preferrably only 1 media type
the_frey_ joined the channel
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cwebber2
eprodrom: it sounds like you have a no-compromise idea, what you proposed as as a process is that there is a list of reasons for having a media type for activitystreams, and those will bve refuted one by one, and when th full list is completed, that's when the wg handles it
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cwebber2
akuckartz: I'm not against it, I don't see the reasons in support of a new media type
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tantek
I don't think this is worth more time frankly, so much time has been wasted on such plumbing. Perhaps we can do a strawpoll to see where the group is overall?
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cwebber2
akuckartz: I'm not against comporomise if necessary
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cwebber2
eprodrom: could you sketch out to see what way you think the w3c should go forward? would it be just json-ld with profile?
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rhiaro_
and wait what about for people who aren't using json-ld..?
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, jasnell, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
akuckartz: yes, then we could have just json-ld... it's more effort than to handle profile
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bigbluehat
there's nothing preventing the use of the application/ld+json media type being used by those who want to...the document could still use the AS2 @context value
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: what I'd like to do is to continue this discussion in middle of discussion
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wilkie
this was already about a compromise where people didn't want to see explicit json-ld
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I for one would like to get it completed
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tantek
perhaps a straw poll A, B, C? of the options?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to get at est of the working group
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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sandro
adds the conneg argument
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cwebber2
eprodrom: to ack myself, I'd like to ask james if we're dealing with multiple fallback media types, should we put application/json on that list
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azaroth
q+ to note application conformance re list of lists
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Zakim
sees cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: do we support that in our list
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cwebber2
jasnell: we don't have to
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cwebber2
jasnell: that's defined as part of the rfc in support of the suffix
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cwebber2
jasnell: I believe anything using the +json suffix automatically has application/json as fallback
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cwebber2
eprodrom: oh great
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cwebber2
jasnell: making sure right now
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cwebber2
jasnell: yup
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cwebber2
jasnell: *reads spec*
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wilkie
that certainly makes sense
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azaroth
link to spec please?
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cwebber2
jasnell: it's built into the rules
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great we get that for free
KevinMarks joined the channel
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bigbluehat
jasnell which RFC?
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
scribenick: rhiaro
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wilkie
I'll scribe
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wilkie
oh ok!
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azaroth
many thanks! :)
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rhiaro_
cwebber: I think we're as close to consensus as we're going to get on this
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rhiaro_
... It seems fromt he LD side we're going to be able to have a guarantee that things can be in an LD format
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rhiaro_
... and having an alias to a profile is great
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rhiaro_
... the microformats community doesn't necessarily want things to be JSON-LD which is fulfilled by this
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rhiaro_
... Seems like we're in a good space of both sides being happy
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rhiaro_
... In response to the previous questiona bout the justification, there has been a lot of conversation in thsi group who don't necessarily want to view things as LD
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rhiaro_
... and want to have a fallback where they can guarnatee that things are simple json
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rhiaro_
... and being able to provide a way to say that things are handled here and that is handled as the profile
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bigbluehat
+1 to the proposed comprise and for moving forward
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sandro
+1 get this over with
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rhiaro_
... I'd prefer not to lose this opportunity to have the group agree
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azaroth
sandro: 7231 is actually clearer than 2616 (yay, progress!) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-5.3.2
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Loqi
woot
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: well said!
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Zakim
sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack azaroth
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Zakim
azaroth, you wanted to note application conformance re list of lists
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
azaroth: I'm also +1 to the proposal from James
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eprodrom
q?
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eprodrom
ack azaroth
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber
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cwebber2
azaroth: one concern is the list of list for geojson list of lists
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Zakim
sees akuckartz on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
azaroth: that one can't just be a profile of json-ld, because json-ld won't provide those things
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melvster
please document concerns
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cwebber2
cwebber2: jasnell: that's just an extension anyway to AS2 though right?
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sandro
uhhhhh, but then those wont work in json-ld at all, so they break other things....?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I have one more question for james, which is we're using this we're using this for AS1 and AS2, is this compatible
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cwebber2
jasnell: it's independent of that. activity+json is specifically AS2
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cwebber2
eprodrom: what I'd like to do is put up a proposal
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wilkie
is there a media type for AS1? I don't think I'm using one.
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tantek
from earlier: jasnell: with the AS type being a MUST, and equivalency is a SHOULD
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cwebber2
cwebber2: wilkie: :)
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jasnell
the proposal is to say that implementers SHOULD treat application/ld+json; profile="http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams" as being equivalent to application/activity+json
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jasnell
but that application/activity+json is the media type for AS2 documents
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cwebber2
jasnell: I just sent it
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cwebber2
eprodrom: that looks good, can you copy/pasta that with PROPOSAL:
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cwebber2
jasnell: mmmmhmmmmm
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wilkie
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 54 karma
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jasnell
PROPOSAL: the proposal is to say that implementers SHOULD treat application/ld+json; profile="http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams" as being equivalent to application/activity+json, but that application/activity+json is the media type for AS2 documents
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bigbluehat
hehe to scribe's awesomeness
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cwebber2
cwebber2: +1
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tantek
? s/PROPOSAL/PROPOSED
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jasnell
cwebber2++
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azaroth
+1
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 55 karma
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tantek
+0 can live with as noted previously
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akuckartz
-1 (not convinced)
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ben_thatmustbeme
0, i would prefer one type, but that acceptable
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sandro
+0 can live it, not excited
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cwebber2
cwebber2: akuckartz: is that -1 or -0?
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees akuckartz on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
+1
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akuckartz
it is a -1
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cwebber2
sandro: would you rather have this spec never be published
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cwebber2
sandro: than go forward
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cwebber2
sandro: you'd like to have several more dozen person hours on this
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eprodrom
q?
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eprodrom
ack akuckartz
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Zakim
sees akuckartz on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
akuckartz: well the problem is there's several sequential arguments put forward
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cwebber2
akuckartz: the list of list is invalid
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melvster
0 may not be a stakeholder so wont state a view, tho I've not seen arguments in favour of application/activity+json so it seems a strange vote
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cwebber2
akuckartz: you can overrule my objection but I'm not convinced and I think it's the wrong decision. You can overrule
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cwebber2
sandro: do you have a proposal
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cwebber2
akuckartz: I'm not against a common solution
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cwebber2
cwebber2: that does sound like you are
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cwebber2
cwebber2: by -1
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cwebber2
akuckartz: what if we reverse it
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cwebber2
cwebber2: oh okay
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cwebber2
cwebber2: that's a clearer proposal
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sandro
PROPOSED; the media type for AS2 is application/ld+json; profile="http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams" and implementation SHOULD treat the media type application/activity+json as equivalent
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth
+1
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tantek
-1 requiring JSONLD is a non-starter
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cwebber2
cwebber2: I could live with this, but I feel like it's not as good.
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ben_thatmustbeme
jasnell: does the effect as1 people?
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jasnell
No, this has no effect on as1
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aaronpk
-1 agreed with Tantek
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cwebber2
cwebber2: it's obvious that there's stronger objections from many parts of the group
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wilkie
-0 jsonld seems more required. that'll cause implementation schisms I'd think
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cwebber2
cwebber2: whereas previously there was closer to a happy compromise between many parts of the group
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eprodrom
+0
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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KevinMarks
If json-ld can't support lists of lists it needs to be fixed
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cwebber2
cwebber2: again I think we're going to lose an opportunity
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tantek
also what wilkie said - it becomes much harder to go pitch / ask developers to implement something supposedly simple JSON but says MUST support JSONLD mediatype.
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cwebber2
sandro: do you think you understand where these -1s are coming from
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cwebber2
sandro: can you change their mind
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cwebber2
azaroth: there's a third option which is to reduce it to one
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cwebber2
azaroth: which is to reduce to one option
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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azaroth
s/azaroth/akuckartz/
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rhiaro_
s/azaroth/akuckarz
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cwebber2
sandro: no -1s would go away
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek
similarly there's another option to *only* use application/activity+json
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cwebber2
azaroth: some not all
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csarven
KevinMarks If List of Lists is a requirement? One can raise arbitrary structures and say that it is a non-starter.
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melvster
any user stories for lists of lists?
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azaroth
csarven: Yes, for GeoJSON
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KevinMarks
List of lists is valid json. Json-ld should be able to handle them or stop calling itself json
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aaronpk
A list of list is valid json so it's ridiculous to specify a media type that disallows valid json
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csarven
azaroth Is GeoJSON-like data in the UC?
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rhiaro_
scribenick: rhiaro_
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rhiaro_
cwebber: we should take the opportunity to find a compromise that more people are happy with
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 56 karma
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csarven
KevinMarks That argument has 0 barring on what's being discussed.
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tantek
alternatively we could propose a straw poll on *only* "application/activity+json" for the folks who prefer "just one mediatype" if they would like to consider it
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akuckartz
ok, I change to -0
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azaroth
csarven: Good question, but I've heard it asserted that it's in scope.
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wilkie
rhiaro++
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aaronpk
Maybe we should start calling it JSONish-LD
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rhiaro_
scribenick: cwebber2
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Loqi
rhiaro has 182 karma
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
eprodrom: note ^^^ akuckartz above
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cwebber2
eprodrom: to mf2 people, is there any way to rephrase #2 proposal where you'd be happy
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csarven
azaroth If that's in the scope, a URL would be nice. When was it initially asserted?
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cwebber2
tantek: I think you got the compromise you're aksing for if you look agove
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cwebber2
sandro: what's that
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cwebber2
eprodrom: which is to just overrule it?
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cwebber2
tantek: no, he changed it to -0
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I see it, no if that's the case, if there are no other objections, I'd like to mark it as resolved
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cwebber2
cwebber2: yes hold on
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melvster
honestly i dont think saying "json ld is a non starter" is any kind of argument
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melvster
when its a W3C REC
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cwebber2
RESOLVED: the proposal is to say that implementers SHOULD treat application/ld+json; profile="http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams" as being equivalent to application/activity+json, but that application/activity+json is the media type for AS2 documents
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tantek
melvster lots of W3C RECs are non-starters today.
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sandro
melvster, not every W3C Rec is welcome in every context
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akuckartz
melvster++
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great, I'd like to give my congrats to the group
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Loqi
melvster has 19 karma
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if nothing else is done today, this is a huge step forward
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cwebber2
cwebber2: yes I agree, congrats all
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to move on to the extension vocab
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sandro
akuckartz++ for making a clear argument, but also being willing to compromise
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Loqi
akuckartz has 3 karma
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cwebber2
jasnell: there's a proposal to drop story / folder / alboum
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cwebber2
jasnell: my proposal is to set up an extension vocab to include those and some other extensions, like Blog
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tantek
+1 keep dropping things
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csarven
If some W3C Recs are not welcome, I think it is reasonable to say that mf2 is a non-starter.
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wilkie
+1 drop all named collections, honestly
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cwebber2
jasnell: album, blog, story, form(?) and wiki
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cwebber2
jasnell: something that's not core but should be defined, basically
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melvster
for the record I dont believe this vote reflects the consensus on the wiki and was an example of vote stuffing ... im not enough of a stake holder to make an objection tho, right now ...
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cwebber2
jasnell: here's a link to a strawman draft
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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csarven
melvster++
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Loqi
melvster has 20 karma
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sandro
melvster, in voting mostly what counts is if someone is willing to lie in the road. That's what matters, not what people think on the wiki.
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cwebber2
eprodrom: what about making this as any kind of ? for the core
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cwebber2
jasnell: i could address that if I understood it
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cwebber2
eprodrom: instead of 3 docuemnts, we have 2 documents, one with core classes and types, secondary doc is the extension
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tantek
q+ to suggest dropping all the named collections as wilkie said, and leave it up to those that support those collections to put forth an extension draft for consideration as an ED
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
jasnell: I'm not sure that ? very much
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/?/buys us/
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cwebber2
jasnell: the core is the minimal core that folks should understand
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wilkie
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 257 karma
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
jasnell: what the proposed extensions are... we'll have an extension vocab anyway
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cwebber2
jasnell: and still have a home for these other things
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cwebber2
eprodrom: ok I buy that
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cwebber2
tantek: I want to put forth a proposal wilkie brought up, which is to drop all the named collections
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cwebber2
tantek: I strongly support this
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cwebber2
tantek: and rather than leave this a responsibility for jasnell, leave this as a separate spec for someone else to do
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to suggest dropping all the named collections as wilkie said, and leave it up to those that support those collections to put forth an extension draft for
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
... consideration as an ED
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cwebber2
jasnell: that' thes same proposal
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cwebber2
tantek: I'm saying don't commit to it here, let someone else do it with any commitment to take it to rec trac
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cwebber2
tantek: I think that's a bit different than what was on IRC and the minutes
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jasnell
my proposal is for the extension to be a note
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jasnell
not a rec track
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
tantek: I think that burden should not fall to you, but to the strong advocates of it
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jasnell
I am an advocate of it
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if we have no more discussion, then maybe we can resolve this
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jasnell
and I've already started a draft ... http://ns.jasnell.me/socialwg/
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cwebber2
eprodrom: maybe along the lines of a simple... accept that it.... well move story/folder/album to a new extension vocab
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cwebber2
cwebber2: hold on
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cwebber2
cwebber2: what are all the terms
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jasnell
I'll write it... one sec
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cwebber2
cwebber2: story/folder/album/wiki?
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cwebber2
cwebber2: ok I'll let jasnell do it :)
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jasnell
PROPOSED: move Folder, Album, Story out of core into separate extension vocabulary
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tantek
jasnell, yes a note-track I think would be a better start
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tantek
and we should be explicit about that
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cwebber2
cwebber2: +1
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eprodrom
+1
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azaroth
+0
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great
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tantek
+1 with caveat that the "separate extension vocabulary" is at best a note (we can discuss more later)
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think that makes sense tantek
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cwebber2
eprodrom: barring any objections, marked as resolved
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cwebber2
RESOLVED: move Folder, Album, Story out of core into separate extension vocabulary
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cwebber2
eprodrom: we are digging deep into AS2 and since we have good progress, I suggest we take one more AS2 item before going on to the invited expert stuff
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cwebber2
cwebber2: I'm good with that
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ben_thatmustbeme
Amy's agenda item is from last week too i think
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Arnaud
you're the chair, it's your prerogative :-)
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cwebber2
cwebber2: ben_thatmustbeme: whats amy's item?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: number 205 is next
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cwebber2
eprodrom: could you characterize this rhiaro
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ben_thatmustbeme
this one cwebber2
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jasnell
I just noticed that #208, #223 are duplicated in the agenda
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cwebber2
rhiaro: I noticed when you tried to put together a collection you could go one way but not the other
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
rhiaro: <so basically, have references back>
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cwebber2
tantek: do we have a solution from james
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rhiaro_
so you can see when you have an object, which collections its in
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cwebber2
jasnell: like I said last week, we used to have a memberOf property, but it seems like nobody thought it was needed, so was dropped in an earlier revision. There's other vocab terms that could be used as extensions for the same purpose
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rhiaro_
I can live with whatever on this, it was just a thought
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cwebber2
jasnell: in any other use case.. I think there's no proof of need to do this
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cwebber2
jasnell: I'd say it's an optional thing, I'm +0 on it
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: csarven, you've jumped in on this
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cwebber2
eprodrom: anything to say?
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wilkie
strict specified ontologies are surprisingly unimportant. I can only see them being used for collection discovery of some kind. I'm indifferent.
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cwebber2
csarven: hi, I think there's a big list of partOf members, make sure inverses are in place, let's reuse existing terms... that's just kind of a cleaner approach
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cwebber2
cwebber2: csarven: hope I got that right
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cwebber2
eprodrom: proposal is to use partOf or whatever from another vocab
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jasnell
which is the extension approach
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cwebber2
csarven: yes, just use one from another vocab
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tantek
if there are no strong feelings, we should just drop
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tantek
more minimal is better
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cwebber2
eprodrom: do you have a favorite you could propose
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Loqi
tantek has 258 karma
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rhiaro_
If someone is using something from another vocab, it doesn't matter, right?
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cwebber2
csarven: dc terms, or schema maybe
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rhiaro_
We don't have to pick one right now
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cwebber2
eprodrom: james any feelings?
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cwebber2
jasnell: we decided quite a while ago that AS2 should not depend on any other vocabulary. I have no problem as a best practice for implementers, but don't want to spec saying they should or must
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm going to write a proposal
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KevinMarks_
Is category/tag not how we empirically do "member of collection"?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: let's see if this matches amy's expectations
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tantek
rhiaro: do you think this is worth postponing / dropping?
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rhiaro_
I'm happy to drop this
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tantek
no one has strong feelings right?
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csarven
jasnell: Would you be cool to reuse existing terms (e.g., hasPart/isPartOf), and make sure there is a mapping to dcterms or whatever?'
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cwebber2
eprodrom: which is that we close 205 with recommendation to use.. is it partOf from dc terms csarven ?
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cwebber2
csarven: I was typing a mini proposal to james..woudl you mind getting to that?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
jasnell: yes we decided there would be no nominative dependency on another vocab, we already say use vcard if you're gonna do that... would probably be safe to say should use dc terms, just don't make it a requirmement
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cwebber2
eprodrom: sounds good
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eprodrom
PROPOSAL: close 205 with recommendation to use partOf from DC:terms
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tantek
camelCase--
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KevinMarks_
I propose using tag
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cwebber2
csarven: if as does have its own, at least map to dc terms
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Loqi
camelCase has 0 karma
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber2
cwebber2: tantek: that's mixedCase :) #pedantry
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tantek
what if we close without a recommendation?
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cwebber2
cwebber2: CamelCase is this
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cwebber2
CamelCase++
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rhiaro_
All the same to me
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cwebber2
mixedCase--
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akuckartz
camelCase++
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rhiaro_
+1 moving on
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jasnell
+1 with or without the recommendation
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Loqi
CamelCase has 1 karma
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Loqi
too much karma!
#
azaroth
Is the implication that any MAY or SHOULD can be from an external vocab?
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KevinMarks_
That's bacterial vs dromedary 🐪 camel case
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cwebber2
eprodrom: hopefully that answers rhiaro's original need
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cwebber2
rhiaro: yep fine
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cwebber2
eprodrom: can we mark resolved? looks that way
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cwebber2
RESOLVED: close 205 with recommendation to use partOf from DC:terms
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tantek
-0 can live with it - expects it to be at risk in practice
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cwebber2
eprodrom: then we can do in last 5 minutes is address chris webber's question
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KevinMarks_
s/bacterial/bactrian/
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I know we've gone FIFO but would like to do this
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rhiaro_
scribenick: rhiaro_
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rhiaro_
cwebber2: we have some people sitting on the possible IE list
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rhiaro_
... and I know we have someone who is eager to implement
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rhiaro_
... and we don't want to lose the opportunity
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rhiaro_
... I know there are people who look interesting there, but specifically the ownCloud people have emailed me asking what they can do to get inovled
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rhiaro_
... Would be a shame to lose them while they're keen
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: The chairs today thought that the queue was empty
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rhiaro_
... Are we talking about the wiki page?
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rhiaro_
cwebber2: they ahve put themselves on the wiki page
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rhiaro_
... there are 4 people
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melvster
FYI: frank from owncloud contacted me last week, and is interested in Solid
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rhiaro_
... Specifically Frank from ownCloud
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rhiaro_
... and Michel Volver from friendica
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KevinMarks_
Propose adding tag to the collection class as that is how we do collections
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rhiaro_
... and Tibor
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rhiaro_
... But specifically Frank, Jessica, Amy and I have spoken to him in person, and he's emailed me multiple times
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rhiaro_
... They ahve a huge userbase and it would be great to have them
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: we have multiple queues for people to add themselves
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rhiaro_
... I'll take it as an action for myself to get this resolved
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rhiaro_
... We need to get them into the main queue for IE applications
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rhiaro_
... sandro doe sthat soudn right?
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rhiaro_
sandro: yep
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: if there's any quesitons, we'll address them at our chair's meeting next week
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cwebber2
eprodrom, thank you, sounds good
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rhiaro_
... will be a week until we get around to this
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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rhiaro_
... appreciate you bringing this up
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cwebber2
eprodrom: if closed on this, we have couple more minutes
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Arnaud
that's the problem with having two lists of requesters: the wiki and the application queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: not sure if the next item on agenda is something we can do in 90 seconds
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cwebber2
jasnell: I have 2 we maybe could do completely
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tantek
+1 jasnell
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cwebber2
jasnell: 247 and 248, rmoving title property and moving displayName to name
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cwebber2
jasnell: never seen title fully implemented
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azaroth
+1 remove title, rename to name
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cwebber2
jasnell: that's from as1
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cwebber2
jasnell: and displayName to name, displayName is from as1
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tantek
+1 on both proposals from jasnell
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think displayName is used
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think title is used in pump.io
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cwebber2
cwebber2: displayName is used I think eprodrom
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cwebber2
cwebber2: last I looked?
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cwebber2
cwebber2: maybe I'm wrong
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wilkie
+1 on both
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to confirm
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cwebber2
eprodrom: displayName is a synonym, for backwards compat, we could map displayName for context
#
cwebber2
jasnell: displayName is a synonym, for backwards compat, we could map displayName for context
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: sounds good, maybe more discussion to do and I'd like to confirm
#
tantek
note, only +1s so far in IRC
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cwebber2
eprodrom: we'll roll over to next week
#
tantek
thanks jasnell for the proposed resolutions
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: thanks to everyone for time
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cwebber2
eprodrom: look forward to next week
#
tantek
cwebber2++ for minuting!
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 57 karma
#
rhiaro_
likes this on-off occasional scribing thing
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wilkie
thanks all
#
eprodrom
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: how to end meeting again?
#
Zakim
... tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, wseltzer, akuckartz, shepazu, Rob_Sanderson, Shane_, rene, cwebber2, Benjamin_Young
#
cwebber2
oh there we go
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/10-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
cwebber2
that was one of our most productive meetings ever
#
ben_thatmustbeme
spent a long time on the media type thing though
#
cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: it was worth it to get ~consensus
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't know about that, but they have gotten a lot more productive lately
#
cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: that was a long contentious issue
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KevinMarks_
+1 to name
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't know about "most" productive, to be clear
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cwebber2
I'm +1 to name also, but can wait till next week
#
cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: I said one of :)
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cwebber2
not most
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cwebber2
one of most!
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cwebber2
not most most
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cwebber2
distinction!
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ben_thatmustbeme
ah, sorry, misread
#
cwebber2
no worries
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ben_thatmustbeme
no... i have to go seppuku now
#
sandro
eprodrom, tantek - ping
#
eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme: let me take this opportunity to say that the new agenda format is superb
#
cwebber2
yes I do think the new agenda format is working well
#
eprodrom
Seems like product ivity is on the rise
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eprodrom
Deeply appreciated
#
eprodrom
And I gladly say I was wrong to oppose it
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eprodrom
Sandro, on it
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cwebber2
rhiaro++ for her awesome pandocticon
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rhiaro_
cwebber2: I might have messed up the scribenick nicks a bit hope that wasn't too annoying
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 183 karma
#
rhiaro_
I forgot I still have an underscore here
#
rhiaro_
needs to kill an irc server
#
tantek
pours one out for the irc server
#
kevinmarks
one does not simply declare consensus on name
#
ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom: i'll admit it is working out better than i expected. The roll over basically jump starts the next weeks agenda and gives everyone more time to digest it
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rhiaro_
cwebber2++
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rhiaro_
for Activipy
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 58 karma
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rhiaro_
NormalizedEnv++ :D
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Loqi
NormalizedEnv has 1 karma
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cwebber2
rhiaro_: :D
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cwebber2
rhiaro_: you generally like it then?
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rhiaro_
yep, still reading tho
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Loqi
woot
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azaroth
Does loqi auto-generate meme images? :)
#
rhiaro_
azaroth: yes, sometimes they sneak into minutes, experiments best in PM :)
#
azaroth
one does not simply auto-generate meme images
#
azaroth
Nice
#
azaroth
takes to PM
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bengo
what if it auto-generated images?
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azaroth
Hrm, he doesn't generate from PMs :(
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azaroth
s/he/it/
#
azaroth
and then we told him x y z
#
azaroth
awww
#
Loqi
cute!
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aaronpk
azaroth: you should be able to PM him with !meme stuff
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azaroth
aaronpk: Yep, I had the syntax wrong
#
aaronpk
ah cool
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aaronpk
works with sentence detection too then?
#
azaroth
Is there a list of the supported meme patterns?
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aaronpk
and then I told him it was merged!
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azaroth
:D
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azaroth
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 4 karma
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azaroth
The cost of JSON-LD is too damn high!
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aaronpk
suspects Loqi will soon be used to make w3cmemes images
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jasnell
What if Loqi is already the intelligence behind w3cmemes?
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jasnell
I propose that we need a Meme object type in the core vocabulary.
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azaroth
+1
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