#rhiaro... As you remember I sent regrets for the last few meetings, but noticed that agenda ended at the last call with the post-type discovery draft going to fpwd, and that was postponed to this week
#rhiaro... and whether that needs to be documented in the core draft
#rhiarosandro: I don't think so. I mean.. I have been thinking about this a lot and I don't think there's anything we can do right now that will really help
#rhiaroazaroth: also in favour of MUST for similar reasons
#rhiaro... Should be explicit about what is required, and promoting classes and properties that the standard requires is just part of every day life. To say that you not-must use the features when you don't want to just makes it more difficult for everyone to implement
#rhiaroArnaud: I'll cast a vote to try to make thins different
#cwebber2I think that it would be strange to point to an AS2 implementation and point at a term and say "you didn't include our term, you aren't compliant"
#tantekcwebber2: that's exactly what the MUST is for, so an implementer can't just make up their own duplicate versions of the terms in AS2 Core and claim compliance without using AS2 terms in actuality.
#rhiaro<rhiaro> if there isn't an applicable as2 type, no big deal
#jasnell_thank you cwebber2 .. yeah, it's only applicable if there's an overlapping type in the core
#rhiaro... intent of this is to give us a corpus of test documents that illustrate every feature of the vocabulary
#rhiaro... so that implementations can go test to make sure that they are compliant
#rhiaroArnaud: so what's important is that when we publish the cr draft is we have a pointer that leads people to a page where they can understand where to start and how to test their implementation
#rhiaro... Depending on whether we're trying to sneak through or get something good here
#rhiarotantek: from my understanding we don't actually need to have a complete test suite to enter CR, even to have a test suite at all, but the more we do have the more real it looks and the more implementable it looks
#rhiaro... so this is going to have to be a judgement call
#rhiaro... strictly from a process perspective we can enter CR as long as we have agreed on exit criteria
#rhiaro... that meet w3c exit criteria expectations
#rhiaro... The biggest challenge with the test suite is not to have one that's complete but to have a test suite that lets us have some common understanidng
#rhiaro... last time we got into a heavy discussion about the test suite there were different opinions about what that meant
#rhiaro... if we have to figure this out, the biggest challenge is how to say this implementation does something with the vocabulary that makes it necessary to be in the spec
#rhiaro... If all we have is tests that converts a stream between syntaxes, all it's testing is syntax parsing, not justifying anything in the vocabulary
#rhiaro... That's the biggest problem of considering whether a feature is 'implemented\
#rhiaro... i think cwebber2 and I were talking after the f2f... understanding I came to is that we should have a validator that at least gives a simple human readable description of what the machine readable syntax says
#rhiaro... Producers check their output against this validator
#rhiaro... And they send us an email saying all the terms they used and checked against the validator
#rhiaro... and we keep a table of all the terms they said that about
#rhiaro... and Consumers, need to use our suite of documents to tell us which terms their consumer can consume
#rhiaro... and their good faith assertion that it consumes them properly and understands what they mean
#rhiaro... and they might want to test that side by side with a validator. Look at a document in our validator and their thing, and say if they agree they make sense in the same way
#rhiaro... So we have a list of terms people produce and consume and believ ethey do so correctly because it aligns with our validator
#rhiarotantek: this is where if we are specific in the exit criteria and we say that we say there are two or more implemenations of every feature where an implemenation means they are producing/consuming syntax correctly, and also producing some result that is unique to that vocabulary term as compared to other terms
#rhiaro... some language like that to put strenght into CR exit critiera
#rhiaro... that buys us time to create broader test framework
#rhiaro... we don't even need to have it partially done before CR
#rhiaro... I don't want to delay CR based on test suite
#rhiarosandro: I'm not going to stand on the road over this, but If eel like in terms of developer engagement, but I'd rather hit them with one.. here's a time to look at AS2, and have the ducks in a row
#rhiaro... if I can't write code today and get in a feedback loop with the WG
#rhiarotantek: I sympathise with what sandro is saying from a developer perspective. In the braoder view, AS2 has been in the discussion for years before w3c etc
#ben_thatmustbemei'd agree with sandro, as a developer i would want a validator and set of documents
#rhiaro... Some level of built up expectation that we have inherited
#rhiaro... This is not brand new, it's been maturing for years
#rhiaro... Expectation that more of these tools and tests exist
#rhiaro... Absence may give people the wrong impression
#rhiaro... The fact that as2 has been going on for years before w3c has touched it. People have heard of it, already have an idea of what it means
#rhiaro... There's been a lot of work, we're not just rubber stamping, we need to show developers where the work is
#rhiaro... Devleopers can say 'okay now I get why this is real now'
#rhiaro... We have to figure something out, I don't know how
#rhiaroArnaud: i don't think we're far away, just a matter of finding the sweet spot so we can got to CR without waiting for too long
#rhiaro... Suggest we leave it at this for today, sandro will put proposal together
#rhiaro... Feel free to discuss between now and next week
#ZakimAs of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
#rhiaroI dug up from a PR comment that @graph isn't valid in AS2
#rhiarobut all the turtle->json-ld converters (disclaimer: didn't try many) use @graph by default
#rhiarowhich meant I ended up quickly hacking together my own just for collections
#rhiaroWhich is just kind of inconvenient. Is there a good reason @graph isn't valid?
#rhiaro(since I store all my blog data as turtle, I thought it would be a couple of lines to output AS2, but can't with the rdf library I currently use, and web services I tried use @graph)
#rhiarooh hm, on that note I believe in the AS2 spec it says AS2 is a 'subset' of JSON-LD, but isn't clear about what the subset is. But maybe I need to re-read.
#jasnell_@graph implies use of JSON-LD, which isn't normatively required
#jasnell_in other words, it serves no function within AS2
#rhiarobut if I do use @graph, is it still valid as2?
#rhiaroor not because normal json consumers will be confused?
#jasnell_@graph is technically a valid extension property
#cwebber2spottiness about connections from a train, as I said
#cwebber2I'm amazed that a connection held up that long.. we were traveling through the snow covered mountains formerly traversed by the donner party :)
#cwebber2not exactly known for its connection to civilizaiton
#Zakimleaving. As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme,