#social 2016-01-12

2016-01-12 UTC
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Loqi Aaronpk made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87509&oldid=0
prtksxna, jasnell, shepazu, tantek, KevinMarks, Arnaud1, jaywink, the_frey and cwebber2_remote joined the channel
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cwebber2_remote get out of here cwebber2!
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cwebber2_remote ah well
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cwebber2_remote looks forward to ssh'ing into his home machine again... is remote and has a router glitch
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87510&oldid=87509
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Loqi Sandro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87512&oldid=87462
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wilkie hello
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aaronpk good morning
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cwebber2_remote moin moin
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87513&oldid=87510
azaroth joined the channel
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eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 12 January 2016
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aaronpk present+
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
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eprodrom present+
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sandro present+
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azaroth present+ Rob_Sanderson
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cwebber2_remote be on in a second, phone is crashing ;x
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sandro present+ jasnell
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wilkie present+
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eprodrom Can we get a scribe for today?
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sandro scribe: sandro
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ben_thatmustbeme i can scribe too, just had to make sure i had a good keyboard
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Arnaud present+
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rhiaro present+
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azaroth +1 to Sandro
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-01-05-minutes
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rhiaro I just created them sorry! I swear I remember doing it last week..
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rhiaro So nobody will have reviewed them yet..
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wilkie yeah. I remember you posting them to the mailing list D:
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cwebber2_remote yay welcome frank!
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aaronpk did they go to a different URL?
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Loqi :D
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rhiaro wilkie: I can't even find my email!
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rhiaro I was looking for evidence
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cwebber2_remote present+ cwebber2
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Arnaud present+
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rhiaro I remember editing the attendee list
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aaronpk lol I see what happened
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rhiaro because it's always wrong
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aaronpk you did post them last week
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rhiaro did I use the wrong date?
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wilkie rhiaro: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-01-05-minutes
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rhiaro
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tsyesika present+
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wilkie hahaha
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aaronpk nope, but the new page links to 2015
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wilkie 2015 != 2016
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rhiaro derp
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sandro Welcome to Frank Karlitschek, new Invited Expert from ownCloud project
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wilkie dates are HARD
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aaronpk fixed that oops
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sandro eprodrom: we use IRC for voting, out-of-bank discussion
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rhiaro okay, retract my previous statement, minutes were there all along
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Approve minutes of Jan 5 2016
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eprodrom +1
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cwebber2_remote +1
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tsyesika +1
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wilkie +1
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aaronpk +1
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azaroth +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom RESOLVED: Approve minutes of Jan 5 2016
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sandro topic: upcoming F2F meetings
Frank joined the channel
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sandro eprodrom: March, hosting at MIT
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16
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sandro PLEASE RSVP
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cwebber2_remote welcome Frank !
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cwebber2_remote that was probably me, it looks like I never successfully muted (using someone else's phone, not sure why I failboated so bad)
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cwebber2_remote also I accidentally hung up, I'm doing awesome
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jaywink sorry me, first time :)
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Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-01-05-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87517&oldid=0
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87515&oldid=87513
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/AS2 CR]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87518&oldid=87448
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-01-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87516&oldid=87515
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cwebber2_remote o/ jaywink
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sandro topic: June F2F in Portland
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sandro aaronpk: Okay to host at ESRI Portland office
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sandro aaronpk: maybe I should create a doodle poll
Karli joined the channel
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jaywink present+ jaywink
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azaroth us++
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sandro aaronpk: I will
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Loqi us has 1 karma
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sandro eprodrom: any obvious conflicts
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sandro topic: New Invited Experts
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ben_thatmustbeme waves to Frank
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wilkie hello frank!
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sandro Frank Karlitschek
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sandro Frank: Happy to be here, I consider this super important, to bring real standards to this space
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sandro .. I've been doing open source for ~20 years, board member of KDE project, and most well known as founder and leader of ownCloud
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sandro ... it's free software alternative to things like gdrive, icloud, etc. FRee and open source, with federation
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sandro ... original vision was sharing files, but now we do more in the social area. with ownCloud9 we'll have comments, etc, around shared files. Blurring the line between cloud storage and social networks
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sandro ... we really want to do this in an open, standard, right way!
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sandro ... hopefully we can help with making test implementations, etc
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sandro eprodrom: Thank you, welcome
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sandro topic: webmention draft
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sandro aaronpk: It was published!
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/
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sandro eprodrom: Any changes in this version
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sandro aaronpk: no, you can look at gh commits, but really just formatting and references
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sandro eprodrom: issues continue to be tracked on github
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rhiaro https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/
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wilkie yay
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Loqi :D
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rhiaro No new updates
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sandro sandro: social-web-protocols was also published at the same time
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sandro eprodrom: great!
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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sandro aaronpk: There are some issues -- it would be good to keep talking about them on github
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eprodrom ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth I'll add it to the Annotation WG agenda for tomorrow
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sandro sandro: This is a great time to tell folks about it, if you can think of anyone who should know
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ben_thatmustbeme might be good to try to inform projects like wordpress, etc things
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sandro sandro: Sometimes it makes sense to really push the word out
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sandro +1 ben_thatmustbeme
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sandro ben_thatmustbeme, can you do that?
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sandro topic: ActivityPump
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll try to reach out to them
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sandro tsyesika: Expecting a vote today on whether ap would go to FPWD
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cwebber2_remote we thought today was where we approved the standards for fpwd
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ben_thatmustbeme there is already a plugin for it, but its certainly a different thing to get them looking at it directly
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cwebber2_remote not publish
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cwebber2_remote :X
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-15-minutes <-
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eprodrom Request raise FPWD-blocking issues on ActivityPump and micropub by 12 Jan 2016
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sandro eprodrom: My fault for not putting this on the agenda, but yes, we agreed on this
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sandro tsyesika: I think we're ready to go ahead, yes
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sandro https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump
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ben_thatmustbeme http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/
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cwebber2_remote my phone keeps dropping off :
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cwebber2_remote q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote q+
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Zakim sees cwebber2_remote on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber2_remote
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote AUGH
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cwebber2_remote phone dropped again
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cwebber2_remote I'll say it here.
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cwebber2_remote I think we're ready for FPWD. I was under the impression that we were voting today on both AP and micropub
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cwebber2_remote apparently I was wrong
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cwebber2_remote so we were supposed to publish by today?
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sandro eprodrom: I don't think you were wrong, they just didn't make it to the agenda
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cwebber2_remote if that's true, I think we should publish, I was under the impression we scheduled things so that AP and micropub would be published at the same time
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cwebber2_remote and the vote would happen today
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cwebber2_remote hence my confusion things are up already
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cwebber2_remote so does there need to be a vote even? we can do one
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cwebber2_remote or should we just move on to process?
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cwebber2_remote and get it published and up?
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sandro sandro: I no longer see a need to publish these at the same time, since there's no front-page news, etc
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cwebber2_remote ok
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Publish FPWD of ActivityPump
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sandro +1
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cwebber2_remote +1
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rhiaro +1
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tsyesika +1
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jaywink +1
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eprodrom +1
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wilkie +1
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aaronpk +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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azaroth +1
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eprodrom RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of ActivityPump
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sandro w3.org/TR/activtypump
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sandro w3.org/TR/activitypump
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azaroth And: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/iiif-discuss/CfSzsg0qiRM
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azaroth re announcements
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eprodrom activity api
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sandro sandro: this is a good time to settle the name, but it doesn't have to be final really
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cwebber2_remote I think activitypump is fine personally...
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rhiaro activitypub!
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sandro eprodrom: as the person who introduced the term "pump", I kind of lean toward something more like "activity api"
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cwebber2_remote I don't have another name really ready
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cwebber2_remote rhiaro: haha!
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aaronpk lol
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sandro eprodrom: I'm fine with activitypump
the_frey joined the channel
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sandro topic: micropub fpwd
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rhiaro was serious... activitypub -> activitystreams, micropub -> microformats
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sandro aaronpk: I haven't cleaned it up yet, so I'd like to not vote this week, but I'll try for next week
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eprodrom rhiaro: I like it
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sandro topic: AS2 Exit Criteria
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cwebber2_remote rhiaro: activitypub would be fine by me
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cwebber2_remote I can scribe
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ben_thatmustbeme i can
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cwebber2_remote assuming my phone doesn't cut out
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eprodrom scribe: cwebber2_remote
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: cwebber2_remote
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cwebber2_remote sandro: procedurally when we go to CR we need to spell out for the director and the public what's our exit criteria
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cwebber2_remote and the procedure is usually 2 interoperable implementaitons
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aaronpk (i'm +1 on ActivityPub as well but don't have a strong opinion either way)
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sandro https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AS2_CR#Exit_Criteria
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cwebber2_remote sandro: we could go for a more strict version, 2 real versions
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cwebber2_remote sandro: people suggested I write that down so I did
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cwebber2_remote sandro: there are two proposals on this page, that 2 activitystreams must be used by at least 2 systems
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azaroth (Can we go back to the name after current discussion? +1 on ActivityPub as well)
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Arnaud q+
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Zakim sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote sandro: so tantek especially asked can we have a stricter verison
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cwebber2_remote sandro: the stricter version is have 2 versions with produced and consumed by qualified implementations, and we have to have a report by a developer, they have to make it available so we can see that it does what it does
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cwebber2_remote sandro: and they have to have a reason for that feaure
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azaroth q+ to -1 asking for rationale for every feature
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Zakim sees Arnaud, azaroth on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote sandro: I was thinking this way in response to the criticism that some people will look at this work and say "nobody is using this" and this gives us for solid proof to show it's used
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cwebber2_remote sandro: that's me laying out the space, I don't have a strong opionion
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cwebber2_remote sandro: for example, paging is one feature, so at some point someone has to cluster what the features are
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cwebber2_remote sandro: what granularity?
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees Arnaud, azaroth on the speaker queue
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sandro q+ james
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Zakim sees Arnaud, azaroth, james on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote jasnell: I can't queue up on irc so I'll queue up here
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eprodrom ack Arnaud
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Zakim sees azaroth, james on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: I appreciat ethe intent but I think it's going too far
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: I've never seen this requirement before
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: and it prevents someone from doing an implementation in a product they can't show you
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sandro Arnaud: (this requirement to have access)
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: it's great if someone can give you access, and maybe we should ask that, and if so it's great, b ut not sure it should be a must
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azaroth +1 to Arnaud
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: as for features, the burden you're putting on people may disincentivize people adding them
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: it seemas backward, we preusmably put things in the spec because we must have a reason to do it
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: it seems odd to me
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cwebber2_remote sandro: the quick answer, i think there's a space between we thought it would be useful and it actualy is useful
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azaroth q-
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Zakim sees james on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote Arnaud: maybe there's a middle ground we can find there, indicate which things you found useful, without people documenting why they use it
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eprodrom ack azaroth
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Zakim sees james on the speaker queue
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azaroth (Arnaud covered my point very well already)
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: I do want to move us along, so I guess azaroth next? oh okay
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Arnaud yw :)
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: do you want to reiterate here?
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cwebber2_remote azaroth: really just to +1 Arnaud, having people write the documentation for use cases, considering the extent of the spec, would be very time consuming
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cwebber2_remote azaroth: even just "please write an email and say what and why you're using" would be sufficient to capture the intent
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eprodrom ack james
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro azaroth: It would be a big barrier to force people to describe all their motivations. No need to get all processy. Just ask for an email about what they're using
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cwebber2_remote jasnell: one thing we chose not to do at the beginning was to document those things, now we're doing a reverse process figuring out use cases, but I think at this point it might be worth documenting what the key use cases are
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cwebber2_remote jasnell: I can take a first stab at giving a formal list on core use cases based on current spec
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cwebber2_remote ... and we can go from there
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: that sounds reasonable, I think that the motivation here is to show widespread use of those use cases
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2_remote ... I think we have the use cases from first principles that shows they're worth having
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eprodrom argh, lost my connection
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cwebber2_remote sandro: so I haven't heard anyone say no to the high bar, so I suggest maybe what we do is have the exit criteria be the minimum one (every feature of AS2 used) but then we show what every feature is used in implementation
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cwebber2_remote sandro: maybe we talk a bit and try to find out what has more data
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cwebber2_remote sandro: in light of those implmentations
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cwebber2_remote sandro: so I'll say, james, does what I'm saying make sense, would you be interested in updating your future use cases documentation with things to be implemented(?)
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: yep hi I'm sorry
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cwebber2_remote jasnell: I'm driving on mute (???)
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cwebber2_remote sandro: if you're interested and see the value in gathering the use cases, should we do an implementation report
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cwebber2_remote sandro: see what use cases we think they're doing
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cwebber2_remote sandro: because I think we need to have an implementation report
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cwebber2_remote sandro: so if we can make use cases and get the implementation report... does that make sense and sound compelling?
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cwebber2_remote jasnell: yeah, I'm chalenging how we reconcile that because I'm not sure what list we have of what we're reconciling against
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cwebber2_remote sandro: so I'm suggesting we go with the minimum version, and we have the second part to do our own good effort
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: that makes a lot of sense
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: and makes our process a lot more defensible
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: there were some parts of this that were a little bit more controvercial, as in terms of things that are accessible vs private vs commercial not-easy-to-access
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cwebber2_remote ... but I guess we'll deal with that on a case-by-case basis?
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cwebber2_remote sandro: yes we'll report based on what we can learn from them
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cwebber2_remote eprodrom: yes as a decision making point, can we deal with this as a proposal to use the exit criteria as defined in proposal 1?
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aaronpk define "system"?
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cwebber2_remote sandro: yes I'll define it
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sandro PROPOSED: Our CR-Exit for AS2 will be: Each feature of AS2 must be used by at least two systems
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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sandro PROPOSED: Our CR-Exit for AS2 will be: Each feature of AS2 must be used by at least two independent implementations
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aaronpk q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro +1
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tsyesika +1
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cwebber2_remote +1
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aaronpk +1
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jaywink +1
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eprodrom +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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azaroth +1
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rhiaro +1
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wilkie +1
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sandro RESOLVED: Our CR-Exit for AS2 will be: Each feature of AS2 must be used by at least two independent implementations
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sandro sandro: next on AS2 is test suite / validator stuff, probably
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cwebber2_remote (do we want to resolve the activitypub thing before end of meeting btw?)
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sandro topic: Action Items
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sandro cwebber2_remote sure
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aaronpk q+ for later to drop a link to the Doodle poll for the June meeting
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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sandro eprodrom: I got some action items done, ACTION-80 and ACTION-85
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack aaron
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Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to discuss later to drop a link to the Doodle poll for the June meeting
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro action-84?
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trackbot is looking up action-84.
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trackbot action-84 -- Sandro Hawke to Bring issue to i18n -- due 2015-12-09 -- OPEN
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/84
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cwebber2_remote q+
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Zakim sees cwebber2_remote on the speaker queue
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sandro not clear, will figure out.
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees cwebber2_remote, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber2_remote
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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sandro topic: AOB
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azaroth +1 to ActivityPub
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cwebber2_remote and my phone droped again
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azaroth I'm convinced by Amy's rationale :)
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cwebber2_remote but I'll say +1 activitypub :)
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cwebber2_remote I think it's fine
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tsyesika I am for it too
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tsyesika :)
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rhiaro \o/
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tsyesika if that matters :P
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cwebber2_remote I like both activitypub and activitypump
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tantek present+ tantek
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eprodrom PROPOSED: change name of ActivityPump to ActivityPub
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cwebber2_remote today is not a good day for me to be on this call :)
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cwebber2_remote phones hate me
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azaroth +1
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tsyesika +1
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cwebber2_remote +1
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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tantek +0
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wilkie +0
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aaronpk +0
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ben_thatmustbeme +0
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sandro -0 (I like the pump metaphor)
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jaywink +0 (fine with both - though pub's have good beer!)
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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sandro tantek: Why change name at last minute?
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sandro eprodrom: It's just it's caried from pump.io without being that related
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cwebber2_remote Note: I'm also +1 on activitypump :)
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cwebber2_remote I always liked activitypump, but rhiaro makes a good case
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cwebber2_remote and eprodrom doesn't seem excited about the name
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sandro sandro: I was asking if we wanted a hyphen!
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cwebber2_remote one question is, does aaronpk feel like it dilutes "micropub" as a name?
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sandro tantek: so you're saying "pump" isn't warranted since it's that like "pump.io"
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sandro eprodrom: Yeah, pump.io folks wont recognize it in activity pump
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack aaronpk
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro +1 (that motivates the change for me)
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eprodrom RESOLVED: change name of ActivityPump to ActivityPub
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tantek great, ship it
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aaronpk unexpected agenda item: rename activitypump!
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sandro activitypub
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tantek agenda?
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Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
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cwebber2_remote I have to leave now
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tantek ok then
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cwebber2_remote sounds like call is over anyway
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cwebber2_remote good call!
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tantek I have to leave soon too - AB meeting
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aaronpk link to doodle poll for the pdx meeting: http://doodle.com/poll/5a8nfcfkqiwxwhpv
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aaronpk just to have that in hte minutes
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wilkie yay
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eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, eprodrom, sandro, Rob_Sanderson, jasnell, wilkie, Arnaud, rhiaro, cwebber2, tsyesika, jaywink, tantek
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jaywink thanks all! nice first phone meeting :) hangouts works fine
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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sandro tsyesika, do you want to talk about the publication process now?
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sandro I dropped off the phone, but can call back
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tsyesika sandro: erm, i need to go get food
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tsyesika it's 8 in the evening here
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sandro okay. why don't you make the name changes and let me know when that's done and I'll reply with more details.
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sandro have a good dinner!
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tsyesika okay cool, thanks!
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aaronpk guess I should email that doodle to the list
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, bye
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Zakim leaving. As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, eprodrom, sandro, Rob_Sanderson, jasnell, wilkie, Arnaud, rhiaro, cwebber2, tsyesika, jaywink, tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme trackbot really should clean up after itself :P
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trackbot Sorry, ben_thatmustbeme, I don't understand 'trackbot really should clean up after itself :P'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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aaronpk lol
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tantek trackbot, clean up after yourself
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trackbot Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, clean up after yourself'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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ben_thatmustbeme hah
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87519&oldid=87512
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87520&oldid=87519
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aaronpk i hope that is the correct header to put those under ^^
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tantek jasnell, wilkie I heard that you'd prefer June f2f options week after what's in the poll - I can't make the week after due to a Mozilla All Hands - thought I'd said that in a previous telcon, but I'm not sure: https://wiki.mozilla.org/All_Hands/2016_London
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tantek it looks like June 6-7 or Jun 7-8 is at least doable for for everyone so far http://doodle.com/poll/5a8nfcfkqiwxwhpv
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tantek are either of those pairs of dates better for you than the other?
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