#social 2016-07-05
2016-07-05 UTC
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-07-05]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98924&oldid=0
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# Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-07-05]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98925&oldid=98924
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/05-social-irc
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dmitriz present+
# eprodrom present+
# ben_thatmust now wonders if eprodrom recognized my voice
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
# eprodrom chair: eprodrom
# eprodrom scribe: ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme scribenick is irc nick, scribe is human readable name
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: okay, lets get started
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: welcome new IEs
# 
bigbluehat present+ Benjamin_Young
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KevinMarks present+
# ben_thatmustbeme new person Julian (sp?)
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: he is in the process of moving this week
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we will defer the welcome to next week
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: approval of last week's minutes
# eprodrom PROPOSAL: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-28-minutes as minutes for 2016 06 28 meeting
# eprodrom +1
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: please do a quick review
# eprodrom RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-28-minutes as minutes for 2016 06 28 meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: closed issues for AS2
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: as we take as2 to CR, one of the things we have to show is that any comments on spec have been resolved to the commenter's satisfaction. Doesn't mean they have to be happy with the results, but at least they acknowledge the issue was dealt with
# ben_thatmustbeme ... amy has been following up with everyone
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: after last week we gave them another week. At this point everyone has had at least 2 weeks. in my messages I said that any silence we would just close them
# ben_thatmustbeme ... I would propose we finalize by close all the remaining as commentor timed out
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro we couldn't hear you there
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: amy, you said everyone had two weeks?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: they had one week, and then we extended them more
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: do we need to agree to close them out?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: I don't think so ... (couldn't hear)
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: as editor i think we have the concensus to close them all out
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: lets talk about the PR from bengo
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: here is the PR itself and the PR was merged but have not pushed a new version of the WD
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i will put those other changes on the agenda at the end
# ben_thatmustbeme ... at least with repect to that PR, it has been closed
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the most important part is there be a draft that is ready for CR
# ben_thatmustbeme ... then if we have approval it will go out
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: explain to me processwise, would that be a WD that says CR, or an ED that says CR
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: neither, its a document that says CR
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its as if you were going to do a publication through echidna, but it doesn't handle CR
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i can do that this week.
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: it would be great if we could have it before the meeting tomorrow
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: that sounds fine
# ben_thatmustbeme ... since we are on AS2
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i wonder if we could stay on as2 for a moment
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i have another thing on as2 issues
# ben_thatmustbeme ... dret raised an issue, we discussed last week, but you weren't here evan, just wanted to make sure you saw it
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its editorial so we can deal with it later, but just wanted to call your attention to it
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i've just read this, let me just review the core doc very quickly
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: its more just a clarification point
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: it makes sense as people trying to push arrays through AS2 validator, but it would need to be a collection
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm okay resolving this as some text calling that it
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: sandro, do we need all issues closed before CR call?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: no, as long as its clear its editorial
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: do we need a resolution of any type on that?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i'm going to reopen this and i'll resolve it after the meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> i don't think we need a resolution on it
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i can just resolve this quickly after
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i'd like to talk about a couple of other items that were closed out
# ben_thatmustbeme ... first is 328, which is test documents of known invalid documents
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i created about 20 documents that would be useful for testing failures, bad documents
# ben_thatmustbeme ... they are in a subdirectory, specifically called out as failure ones
# ben_thatmustbeme ... they are all valid json, but not valid as2 docs
# ben_thatmustbeme ... the other issue i closed out this week was a link to the validator, its now in the readme for the test directory
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think that closes those two out
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i just wanted to call those out here and see if they were satisfactory to aaronpk and sandro
# ben_thatmustbeme ... if so thats all we needed to discuss for as2 today. i
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: linked data notifications
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: over the laste fiew months we have been working on a LD notifications spec, it sends JSON-LD objects around
# eprodrom q?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we'd like to bring it to the WG as an ED and see how far we can get with it
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: this is a generalized notification protocol. Is it within our charter? is it something within our sphere of work to work on?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: would another group like LDP group or a community group more accurate?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: its not LDP, we leverage it, and its similar, but its not. You don't need to be a full LDP implmentation to be a receiver
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i guess my question was more about, it seems to be a general notification protocol, is it right for the socialWG to do?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i wanted to just hear from the authors what they think of that
# bigbluehat waves
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i think it is, its compatible with activity pub, its also compatible with the annotations protocol, which is a social use-case
# ben_thatmustbeme ... and any other kinds of social interactions. the actual content of the notification is really broad
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack sandro
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# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: there is a permathread between me and melvin about him wanting webmentions to be something it isn't. I think this is more of what he wants. People come to webmention saying 'can i use this' and they can, but have to do some things. Its a little more straight forward if you have an authentication method already. Also the other thing is that webmention doesn't have that is, that there is some way to fetch those messages after that fact
# ben_thatmustbeme tried to keep up with sandro on that
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack tantek
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: question to the authors, does this proposal address melvin's concerns? would this resolve that permathread?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we've run it by melvin and yes
# ben_thatmustbeme ... he has said it looks good
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: well thats a good way of resolving that issue
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: is there an issue on webmention's issue tracker that we can point to?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... something we could resolve there
# eprodrom q?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: maybe we could just explicitly note it in that issue
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: but this isn't webmention right?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: yes, but i think this is what melvin wanted to turn webmention in to, but it isn't
# eprodrom q?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the question is from the process perspective, does this satisfy the commenter?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i don't htink he has said yet
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: at our last f2f, we discussed the difficulty we will have to close out the existing documents. does it make sense to take on a new document this late in the game?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm not objecting to this particular doc. I am saying in general for any new documents
# ben_thatmustbeme ... is it ok for us to take on a new document at this time in our lifecycle
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i would say, we are bringing more resources in from the solid end in to work on this, so its adding new resources not just more workload
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think when i made that argument was when Arnaud pointed out that we don't have time to deal with lots of different documents in the group, but we are at least trying to spread around the authorship
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: this is something i would be working on anyway
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the only real resource this takes up then may be just telcon and f2f time
# ben_thatmustbeme ... if we can resolve that, we can resolve the resource issue
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think we need the editors to at least recognize its possible we don't finish the document as we only have 6 months left
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we are certainly prepared to publish as a note if all else fails
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack tantek
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that poses a good follow up then, do you have an intended date for CR?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think we had said that anything this late we would push toward note track to make sure to set expectations inside and outside of the group
# ben_thatmustbeme ... do you think this is simple enough to get to CR that quickly?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we are pretty sure we can get our specs to CR by lisbon right?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we are aiming for that, but if we have to drop to note track thats fine
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its easier to go from rec to note than note to rec right?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: it depends on implementations flocking to it or not
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think that makes sense. and we continue to focus on any new docs we bring to the group, we let them know its more to keep it to note track
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# ben_thatmustbeme ... with PuSH its very well known and has been implmented so the process is very different
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we have implemented a lot of it and we have leaned on LDP for a lot of the work, and its just discovery of endpoints and such
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: for LDN we wrote it around the implementations we have had for some time
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think that just leaves the question evan raised about, is it in our charter?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... what section does this fall under
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: federation
# ben_thatmustbeme ... possibly social depending on how you use it
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: you said this is compatible with activity pub, the way you just described it could be client to server or server to server. what does this add beyond activity pub?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: activitypub specifically uses json format, thats just a specialized form of LDN. we do content-type negotiation so you can send in other formats
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: so its more general then AP?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: yes, AP would be a more specialized case of this
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats one of the concerns thats been raised to date, is that we need to have some kind of story of when we want one or the other
# ben_thatmustbeme .. this seems like its even more confusing of when to use one or the other
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: my hope with this is take some of the work away from the AP side. We don't want it to be reliant on this spec
# ben_thatmustbeme ... AP has the additional info on what to do after you receive the notification. thats out of scope of this spec
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think i get what you are saying, i'm in favor of modularizatino in general but i would like to hear from cwebber2
# ben_thatmustbeme ... and how does this impact getting AP to CR
# ben_thatmustbeme ... if this is going to slow AP at risk, i'm a bit more concerned
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i accept that you are working on fitting this all together
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: is he worried or not?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i don't know
# ben_thatmustbeme ... he's not on the call today
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i'd like to hear from him before we accept this as an ED
# eprodrom tsyesika: are you on the call?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: that puts us in a little of a bind time wize, but i would like ot hear from cwebber2 or tsyesika on this before we accept it
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if we have a thumbs up from editors there from AP, i think its time for a proposal
# eprodrom PROPOSE: accept https://rawgit.com/csarven/ldn/master/index.html as new Editor's Draft for federation protocol
# dmitriz +1
# bigbluehat +1
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if there are any objections to that working please say so now before the immediate+1s
# eprodrom PROPOSAL: accept https://rawgit.com/csarven/ldn/master/index.html as new Editor's Draft for federation protocol
# eprodrom +0
# ben_thatmustbeme 0, i haven't read the document
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: don't need to vote again, minor change there
# eprodrom RESOLVED: accept https://rawgit.com/csarven/ldn/master/index.html as new Editor's Draft for federation protocol
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we have mostly +1s and some +0s. I'm a bit concerned about the timeline, but accepting we may not take this to CR
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think aaronpk had a good quesiton on IRC, does this resolve melvster's concerns on webmention
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think this does close this out unless there is something else to discuss about it
# ben_thatmustbeme ... it looks like its a yes
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: document status
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: do we have any updates on document status
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we were about to publish PTD FPWD and JF2 FPWD but we ran in to apublication holiday we didn't know about
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: maybe plan for doing them at the same time on the others, the 12th?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats fine with me
# ben_thatmustbeme ben_thatmustbeme: thats fine with me too
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: tsyesika any updates on AP?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... she's on IRC actually, so i'll give her a pass
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: is there any other business?
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: other business
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: upcoming F2F in lisbon
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think we have a wiki page for that, i hope so
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we should start collecting, 'going', 'interested in going' etc
# ben_thatmustbeme ... so we know what size room to ask for
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: during the f2f amy and i committed but we had a budget issue and hopefully we will know in the next day or two
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: hopefully people can add themselves to that wiki page
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: thanks everyone for coming
# eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/05-social-minutes.html trackbot
# bigbluehat bye all! see you in Lisbon!
# eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: thanks for scribing
# ben_thatmustbeme rubs hands
# ben_thatmustbeme heh
# ben_thatmustbeme minutes are done
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, bye
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# 
tantek please add yourself if you can make it (or even if you can't or pending budget approval) to the f2f! https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-09-22#Participants (add any caveats in notes)
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# tantek Also, the agenda for next week's telcon is up: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-07-12#Discussion_Items please add your discussion items if you thought of any we missed today!
# 
rhiaro cwebber2, tsyesika, when you get a second could you look again at this AS2 issue? https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/289 eprodrom adds a minimal relationship vocabulary, but I think this is duplicating protocol-level stuff that AP is/will already be doing? Also tantek and dmitriz agree that this should be an extension. Pretty much too late to deal with before CR now, but given that everything is implicitly at-risk is unimplemented, it's still
# tantek rhiaro: worth adding to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-07-12#Discussion_Items ?
# 
cwebber2 hopefully the boring default web ui will look something like http://dustycloud.org/gfx/goodies/pydraulics_mockup.png
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro++
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