#social 2016-09-13

2016-09-13 UTC
jasnell and shepazu joined the channel
jasnell, tantek, KevinMarks, KevinMarks2, Arnaud, shepazu, shepazu_, Arnaud1 and Arnaud2 joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #social!
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tantek
I see regrets from Evan, and partial regrets from sandro and rhiaro.
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cwebber2`
hello
jasnell, bengo and akuckartz joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
can't seem to get on to the actual webex client
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ben_thatmustbeme
usually its by room #, i enter that and it just loads back to the same page
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess i'll call in today
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell sandro meeding dial in info doesn't have a link anywhere, just going to an old link where it asks for meeting # just seems to keep loading the same page over and over after entereing the meeting number, doesn't even get to asking for a PW
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme
who is dialed in right now?
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cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: you know about hte new dialin stuff right?
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber, yes, thats what i'm talking about
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csarven
I'm on the call.
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tantek
dialing - had trouble with comms
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tantek
present+
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cwebber2
present+
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tantek
trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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tantek
present+
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 13 September 2016
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aaronpk
present+
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cwebber2
present+
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csarven
present+
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bengo
present+
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ben_thatmustbeme
I can scribe, though i'll not be sure who is speaking
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ben_thatmustbeme
not great audio
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cwebber2
it's fine for me
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ben_thatmustbeme
scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
chair: tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: first thing is approval of minutes of last week
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tantek
PROPOSED approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-09-06-minutes
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cwebber2
the JIT meeting log review tradition lives on
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: tantek, aaronpk, cwebber, csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, bengo
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2 i usually read in IRC and don't look at the minutes on the wiki until last minute
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, akuckartz, bengo, tantek, shepazu, KevinMarks, ElijahLynn, dwhly, Loqi, bitbear, pdurbin, bigbluehat, rrika, strugee, aaronpk, jet, cwebber2, wilkie,
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Zakim
... csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, rhiaro, raucao, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot
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tantek
RESOLVED: approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-09-06-minutes
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cwebber2
tea packs!
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: as a reminder, we have no telcon next week, but we do have our F2F coming up
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Loqi
Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting in Lisbon (F2F7)
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rhiaro
present+
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cwebber2
packs some tea in suitcase
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cwebber2
oh hello rhiaro !
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ben_thatmustbeme
... we also have the planary day at TPAC, in the past we had several sessions related to the WG, so expect wednesday to be a pretty busy day
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rhiaro
and sandro's meeting was a lot shorter than expected
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ben_thatmustbeme
... and I believe TimBL has his talk on redecentralization on the morning of wednesday
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cwebber2
proposal?
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: tantek, have you proposed ?? on TPAC
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rhiaro
cwebber2: for the tpac plenary session
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wilkie
present+
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tantek
08:35-09:05: Research work on redecentralization of the Web - Tim Berners-Lee
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: back to discussion items
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cwebber2
evan is remote I think
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ben_thatmustbeme
... is anyone else going to be on other than the 6 of us?
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Loqi
Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting in Lisbon (F2F7)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: first item on the discussion items, pubsubhubbub, was to we need to go the FPWD?
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ben_thatmustbeme
... we have a ED, and there are no issues, which i'm going to attribute to a lack of attention, not that no issues exist
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: is he on the call?
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: no, i'm a little concerned that he hasn't been on the call last week or this week, he created the draft and hasn't been around since
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: we may need to add a co-editor
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rhiaro
hey bengo o/ glad to see you back
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: i don't think anyone on the call has any extra bandwidth
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aaronpk
i am interested but do not have bandwidth for another spec!
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bengo
:)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: just in case, i'll drop a link in to the chat
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ben_thatmustbeme
... my personal (non-chair) opinion is that this draft does make several improvements as aaronpk suggested
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wilkie
I'm looking forward to this draft getting moved along
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: it needs to make CR in a month, its not going to get to RED
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: thats true, but i think its worth getting a note either way
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: sometimes people outside w3c don't understand the difference between a rec and a note
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i would certainly like to see it published by the w3c in some aspect
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ben_thatmustbeme
... next item is LDN by rhiaro and csarven
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ben_thatmustbeme
... they are asking for people to review, and file substantiative issues before F2F
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ben_thatmustbeme
... that stikes me as fast, but we've done other things fast in the WG
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ben_thatmustbeme
... theres been a lot of dev in the last month, and only a few open issues, and there is even a test suite in progress
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ben_thatmustbeme
.... would like to commend the editors on that
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: i think you've summarized things well, we've had feedback from implementors and potential implementors. We've been doing our own implementations, we have exit criteria, we are working on implementation report template. we just want attentive review by the group
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ben_thatmustbeme
... this gives everyone a week and a half to review it before the TPAC
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: is the current ED ready for a new WD?
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akuckartz
present+
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: yes, there are a few editorial changes, but normative changes are frozen right now
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i don't know thats necessary for CR, but if we need to do that, we can
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: its actually very necessary, one of the things for CR is getting wide-review, and this is our newest draft
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: we have some of that in the issues
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: ?? i only see 1 new issue by someone that i don't recognize
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: they aren't all opened by people outside the group, but there has been some discussion by others outside the group
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ben_thatmustbeme
i believe the process doc says something about comments and a few issues does not = wide review
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i know that showing wide review can be the hardest part to show
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i'd strongly suggest anoter WD to help with that, do you have a changes section?
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: link in IRC
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rhiaro
PROPOSED: Publish new WD of LDN based on current ED
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tantek
+1 (chair hat off on that)
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: i should add that i'm going to reach out to the horizontal review wgs
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ben_thatmustbeme
<ben_thatmustbeme> +1
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Loqi
sandro: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 20 minutes ago: meeding dial in info doesn't have a link anywhere, just going to an old link where it asks for meeting # just seems to keep loading the same page over and over after entereing the meeting number, doesn't even get to asking for a PW
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tantek
RESOLVED: Publish new WD of LDN based on current ED
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: all +1s so lets declare this and move on
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: part of our job as chairs is to help the specs along, so i think this will help
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i've tried to set expectations for F2F, did that make sense, any additional questions about that? the additional questions are going to be about implementations, implementations interop, implementations that are not from the editors
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: we'll be able to demonstrate some at TPAC, hopefully beyond the editors
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: do you have any at-risks?
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: we have 1 at-risk, we're hoping to add it to the namespace, but there is a w3c process to that
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: is that a specific features?
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: the namespace is set to ldp for the whole spec ???
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: thats not really what at-risk means
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: this is fine, its a small part of it that might change between a small value change
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: thats not my understanding, but we should check the spec
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ben_thatmustbeme
(arguement over what people "BELIEVE")
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: so any features at-risk?
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: there aren't any features at risk no
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ben_thatmustbeme
(rhiaro i missed all that, can you put that in the minutes?)
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rhiaro
The ActivityStreams2 media type support is at riks
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rhiaro
s/riks/risk
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ben_thatmustbeme
short and sweet
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: any other questions about LDN from the group?
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ben_thatmustbeme
... there is a strong suggestion to file any substantiative issues, which i want to underscore
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: moving on to activitypub
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ben_thatmustbeme
... it looks like chris and jessica. there is a request to please read the latest ED, and file any subs. issues before TPAC
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ben_thatmustbeme
... would like to go to CR at TPAC
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: one question i'd like to ask, for several F2F meetings, we've discussed a pump.io federation implementation and wanted to know how long it would take to update the implementation to support the lastest spec
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i'm not directly involved in pump.io other than answering quesitons. I have my own implementation
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ben_thatmustbeme
... there are internal transitions going in the group, but i don't know if anyone has an plans to do that right now
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i'm guessing mediagoblin was the version you demonstration before?
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: yes, previously it was mediagoblin using pump.io's spec, but now i plan to update mediagoblin to use AP
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i've stepped away a little from mediagoblin, i have been working on my own other implementation
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i think one of the things was to get mediagoblin up to date before going to CR
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: whats left on pubstraight?
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tantek
s/pubstraight/pubstrate
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rhiaro
s/pubstraight/pubstrate
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i should be able to demonstrate it at TPAC
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: that kind of fresh prototype is good, and we look forward to that demo, but to set expectations, its a bit concerning that it isn't working with mediagoblin at the moment
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i don't remember any discussion about that exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i believe there was a concern of having ANY implementations of it before going to CR
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: i don't remember anything about needing implementations before going to CR
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Zakim
sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
can scribe
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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tantek
ack ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: i thought implementations from people outside of the editor was required for transitioning to CR
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aaronpk
sandro: no implementation is required for transition *to* CR, but out of CR, it's very nice to have implementation experience. technically just the editor's is enough but it would be nice for other implementations as well
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Zakim
sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
tantek: per w3c process today, there is no explicit requirement that there be implementations before CR
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aaronpk
... what we and others have been doing is adopting a convention of there being multiple implementations including by those outside the group in order to shake out substantive issues
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aaronpk
... i can cite other examples like CSS and webapps. the typical result is that when external implementations start it brings up issues that require additional CRs
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aaronpk
... so while it feels like you may have made progress by having a CR, you haven't actually made progress to exiting CR because you still have to close substatntive issues
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ben_thatmustbeme
i see, i misread that
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aaronpk
sandro: that's not a decision this group has made, we didn't hit that bar for AS2
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ben_thatmustbeme
it says "how it will be demonstrated"
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aaronpk
... i don't think we have a list of implementations
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aaronpk
tantek: we do, it's in the spec and we checked that as part of the transition call as well
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aaronpk
cwebber2: there's no requirement to switch AS1 to AS2 implementations right? it feels very strange. i worked on having an implementation. but to be told that an existing thing must convert before exiting CR is strange. [cwebber is cutting out]
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aaronpk
my audio is dropping out
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme can you take over?
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ben_thatmustbeme
scribenick:ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim
sees rhiaro, sandro on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees rhiaro, sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack rhiaro
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: we did discuess several times how we would figure out how to get implementation experience from as1 implementors
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tantek
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: i wanted to say that i have implemented parts of AP as well so we can work on getitng those working together before TPAC
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: i still don't understand what you were saying about implementations of AS2, there is a link in the spec for implmentation reports and it goes to an empty web-page
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: maybe i was looking at the wrong link..... ahh i see the confusion. on our home page there is a link
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ben_thatmustbeme
... multiple of those are outside the group, where as the spec links to something else which is empty
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i believe the entire time we were disucssing it in the group we were looking at the wiki page, not for implmeentation reports as we weren't at CR yet
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ben_thatmustbeme
... if theres some way we can make that more discoverable from the spec or somewhere, i'll leave that to the editors
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: hopefully we'll get actual implmentation reports for it soon
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: yes, thats the best way
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: cwebber2 i believe you asked the question about existing implmentations and thats what led us down this thread
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: tantek, aaronpk, cwebber, csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, bengo, rhiaro, wilkie, akuckartz
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Zakim
... csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, rhiaro, raucao, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, akuckartz, bengo, tantek, shepazu, KevinMarks, ElijahLynn, dwhly, Loqi, bitbear, pdurbin, bigbluehat, rrika, strugee, aaronpk, jet, cwebber2, wilkie,
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i wish evan was here as i know we had that discussion with him. according to Zakim, bengo is on the call
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tantek
ack cwebber2
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
... bengo are you still there?
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tantek
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo
I am on chat but not call
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bengo
(couldn't access new webex page, reset w3 password, takes awhile to propogate)
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i'm just going to speak clearly how i feel about this. after the call last week, i have dropped everything on the floor to do what i needed to get this to CR. I never understood that updating an existing implementation to this before CR. I feel like i've done everything i possibly could do to get this to CR and i feel like i'm being blocked now. It doesn't sound like this is a standard process thing, it should have been made clear to
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ben_thatmustbeme
me much earlier
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ben_thatmustbeme
(cwebber2, is that a good minuting of that?)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: as I understood it was that there was work on converting it activity pub was what you were working on. And if there is no implmenetation.....
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack aaronpk
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i'm talking about the UPDATING and existing implmenetation
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ben_thatmustbeme
... that was not expressed clearly
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: as someone relatively outside of this spec, i don't remember which state (before CR after,etc) i remember seeing several times discussion of "its coming" and i thought there was work on AS2 in mediagoblin
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: we have been working on switching to as2 from as1, but our focus was on pump.io api. everything we have been doing has been informed by our work on pump.io
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i was not clear on the expectation that mediagoblin neede to implement activitypub before CR
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i'm not saying that its a blockade, its just surprising for those of us that had that understanding. there isn't a requirement for that in the process, but that was our understanding of how it was working.
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ben_thatmustbeme
... just because there was that expetation and surprise, it does not mean that its blocking you
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: part of the reasons i implementation with pubstrate. I wanted to do it wihout too much mediagoblin influence
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ben_thatmustbeme
... that way it was completely seperate, and it didn't have too much bias. does that make sense?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: Yes, very much, and i commend you on that incitefulness on doing that. i think aaronpk has written and thrown away micropub implementations just like that. i think we should just look at what parts are implemented and what are not.
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tantek
s/incitefulness/insightfulness
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i certainly see a reason to hold off on CR as i have not started a test suite, and i haven't set up implementation reports, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: there isn't a requirement for a test suite, we just ask a plan on how a test suite will be done
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: we do need your assessment of what features you would consider at risk
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i think the biggest challenge with AP is that the autorization section is going to be a little more vague, changing tokens, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme
... there was an earlier ticket about moving to a new section that is intentionally vague
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ben_thatmustbeme
... other things i'm pretty confident on, but i could do a more thorough review for sure
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: one option i would suggest, which is "if there are less than 2 implementations of a specific feature, than it should be at-risk"
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ben_thatmustbeme
... if you have any feature that you don't both implement and preferrably interoperate with
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
... you might want to talk with aaronpk, about how to write out the auth / tokens issue
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i really appreciate your working with us, there are a lot of first time editors in this group so its really great the work you have done
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ben_thatmustbeme
my god can it be over yet?
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cwebber2
yes, a new WD would be good
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cwebber2
there's a changelog
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: just as we asked for LDN, are there changes you want to republish as a WD
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ben_thatmustbeme
... can we get a link to the changelog?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: we are going to go a few minutes over if there are no objections
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wilkie
sounds good
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tantek
PROPOSED: Publish new WD of Activitypub based on editor's draft https://w3c-social.github.io/activitypub/
Arnaud joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i see a bunch of changes here which is certainly worthy of publishing a new WD
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tantek
RESOLVED: Publish new WD of Activitypub based on editor's draft https://w3c-social.github.io/activitypub/
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rhiaro
that should be possible today
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: if there is some way you can get that out before TPAC, that would be great
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: anyone that want to provide any other update?
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i can give a quick update. on micropub i have 2 issues i'm waiting for commenter to reply on those, some may require some discussion. webmention hasn't had much changes, mostly editorial that i haven't had time to make yet
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Micropub
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i have enough changes on micropub that its worth people to review the changes since the last
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: can you add that to the required reading section for F2F?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: how are we with test-suite completeness (to all our implementors)
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/implementors/editors
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: do we have a test for every feature?
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: not yet
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: for others going to CR, thats going to be the next thing is looking for, test coverage, and implementation reports
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: i think we should spend a minute talking about TPAC
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: how do we pitch a session on it. I think a title for open discussion would be "Decentralized Web"
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ben_thatmustbeme
... some sort of framework for it would be good, if tim gave a keynote for it, it would be good
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i don't know the content of the talk, if you can find it out
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/decentralized web/decentralized social web
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ben_thatmustbeme
audio cut out when you said "social" on my end
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: i think "decentralized web" is too generic and not a great title
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: certainly that would cover things outside our title
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/title/charter
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: i think of this as maybe setting the stage for what the next WG would be, not the status of this group as much
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i think that if we are able to show demos to those outside the WG, that would be good
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cwebber2
I can probably do one
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: who would be up for giving a demo? aaronpkis always good for that right?
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KevinMarks
Indeed, and decentralized web has an existing group
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: yeah i can do that
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i think this group has been pretty good about having demos too
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: i can demo too
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KevinMarks
I can join in remote demos
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ben_thatmustbeme
csarven: as can i (via emoji)
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wilkie
some sort of primitive text emoji
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro: i'll update the wiki page and say we will have demos and what people might want to do in the future
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akuckartz
emoji++
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Loqi
emoji has 0 karma (1 in this channel)
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KevinMarks
Do we need to parse emoticons as well as emoji now?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: i think if we can demonstrate a positive example of evolving multiple approaches, which is something that is uncommon in the w3c, so if you can keep that in mind in your demos
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sandro
"Decentralized Social Web, Discussions and Demo Session"
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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csarven
I can do one that incorporates AS2, LDN, Web Annotations, Solid
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: if no other business
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: thank you everyone
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ben_thatmustbeme
... see at least some of you next week
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 168 karma (54 in this channel)
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wilkie
I'll be in portland hopefully with the free time to be remote
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wilkie
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 169 karma (55 in this channel)
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wilkie
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 71 karma
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme++ thank you for minuting
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Loqi
slow down!
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme++ thank you for minuting
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 170 karma (56 in this channel)
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tantek
sandro: FYI, "Social Web" breakout session from TPAC 2015 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015/SessionIdeas#Social_Web (minutes, wiki, photo)
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sandro
thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme
trackbot end meeting
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been tantek, aaronpk, cwebber, csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, bengo, rhiaro, wilkie, akuckartz
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/13-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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tantek
Thanks ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek
goes to update F2F agenda to cover more of what we discussed today.
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Zakim
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been tantek, aaronpk, cwebber, csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, bengo, rhiaro, wilkie, akuckartz
bengo and aaronpk joined the channel
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rhiaro
New LDN draft published... https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn ... echidna worked FIRST TIME for the first time every \o/
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tantek
nice work rhiaro!
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ben_thatmustbeme
thank rhiaro for creating the minutes
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was just about to do that
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Loqi
[Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub
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rhiaro
Sorry I usurped that ben_thatmustbeme I wanted the resolution for the publication
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@dustyweb
@jaywink See the new version of the spec for how that might be done... feedback appreciated https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/%23authorization-lds
(twitter.com/_/status/775783546434781184)
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tantek
thanks cwebber2!
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