#social 2016-10-25
2016-10-25 UTC
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# 
ben_thatmust good afternoon
# eprodrom Hello all
# eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-social-irc
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# eprodrom present+
# 
ben_thatmustbeme present+
# eprodrom scribe?
# ben_thatmustbeme I haven't in a while
# ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme wait, a big agenda, maybe i don't want to scribe :P
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: approval of minutes from last meeting
# eprodrom PROPOSAL: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-10-18-minutes as minutes for 2016 Oct 18 meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if you have not already reviewed those, please review them
# eprodrom +1
# ben_thatmustbeme wilie i have done that
# ben_thatmustbeme wilkie*
# eprodrom RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-10-18-minutes as minutes for 2016 Oct 18 meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we do have our F2F coming up in november, 3 weeks away, if you have not yet signed up please do so, so we can plan logistics
# ben_thatmustbeme ... link in IRC
# ben_thatmustbeme ... it will likely be one of our last F2F meetings, if not our last and we have a lot of talk about there
# ben_thatmustbeme ... sando, do we have anything else to discuss there?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: not unless anyone has questions
# eprodrom TOPIC: AS2
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: AS2
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we had a lot of discussion of AS2 going to CR last week
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# ben_thatmustbeme ... we have a few bugs to fix, and some other items
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i did not have much time to work on it this week but i will be pushing it this week
# ben_thatmustbeme ... mostly its editorial issues, a few normative issues that we resolved that i just need to close, and we need implementation reports
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i would really like to have our first implmentation of pump.io by F2F
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'll also be doing an implementation report for the validator and hopefully james will have one too
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there was a question about twitter using AS2. i reached out last week, but I am still waiting for a response back
# ben_thatmustbeme ... are there any questions for me or james on AS2?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if not i'm good moving along for now
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: <<repeats rhiaro comments from chat>>
# eprodrom TOPIC: ActivityPub
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: activitypub
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: lets hold off on that while cwebber2 reconnects
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: PubSub
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: I did apparently volunteer last week to create the test suite, so far i have a plan of the list of tests to write but i plan to make progress on that this week.
# ben_thatmustbeme ... over the last 24 hours or so there have been a whole bunch of issues opened on pubsub
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i would love to get more eyes on them
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i tackled half of them already this morning to try and get some resolved if possible
# ben_thatmustbeme ... link in IRC
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: any in here you find needs discussion today? or are we not ready for that yet?
# 
@jirikuncar Welcome PubSub protocol standard on W3C ? https://www.w3.org/TR/pubsub/ (twitter.com/_/status/790962143059402752)
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: there were some suggestions to rename it... again
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: lets leave that to the thread
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i think most of these are fine to allow to continue to talk on the threads
# 
aaronpk new name issue: https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues/10
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i really hope we don't persue that much further, the name took enough effort
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: on the test suite, do you have an intention to do an online test server similar to the web webmention works?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yes, similar to webmention and micropub, a tool that acts as the other end for you
# ben_thatmustbeme and will track what features are available and build the implementation report from that
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: have you had a chance to look, are there normative issues here?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: there are some around timing and retrying
# ben_thatmustbeme ... some are editorial, some are tightening up language
# ben_thatmustbeme ... like defining that a time in seconds must be positive integers, things like that
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: so some are normative, okay
# ben_thatmustbeme ... anything else on this agenda topic?
# eprodrom q?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: can i ask one big question?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... when we first talked about it, i raised the issue of payload type. have we thought more about what we are doing there?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i haven't seen any discussion, but maybe it happened...
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: no, we haven't. There is one issue around diffing versions. I don't think its going to be possible to actually specify that around that
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think this is going to be around notifiying and not around the actual content delivery
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: so there is going to need to be another spec?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i think there will need to be a profile of the spec, similar to oauth2
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: so for me to use this to syndicate blog posts, this isn't going to tell me how to do it?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: you will need this spec and the documentation from the hub you are using
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: that seems sub-optimal
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i agree, also the publishing section is empty, which is a seperate issue, but similar
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: that leaves me confused as to what the use of this spec is
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: it provides interop on some aspects
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the flip side is that we have real world experience where it is working
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: but thats not via this spec
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i don't think you are asking the right question
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think there is clearly something that works, but what works is not being specified by this spec
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i'm hoping that we can fill that in based on experience
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: one of the issues there is that the spec tries to be content type neutral
# ben_thatmustbeme ... to do that, it can't specify that with diffing types
# ben_thatmustbeme ... the most interoperable way to do that, is to use XML feeds, specifically RSS and ATOM
# ben_thatmustbeme ... one way is to put those in to the spec
# ben_thatmustbeme ... but then its not really content type neutral
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: one way is to put what you just said in to the spec and then give people links to where they can handle those
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i feel a little uncomfortable with that, i feel like some of it will have to be in the spec
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think its a reasonable approach to document "heres the content-types that we have found to work as of today" and then give people some idea of how to make their own types work
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i guess from an implementor perspective, i'd rather document what works now, rather than dance around it for now
# ben_thatmustbeme ... as for right now i believe we have interop with RSS, ATOM, and h-feed
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yes
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: and then it becomes a list for people to get into the party with
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i guess it becomes a question of where we put that? normative, as another note?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm guessing that h-feed is maintained in the same way as mf2?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: yes, i think we could docuemnt the parsing of it at least
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: I'm trying to picture how that text is, for RSS i feel that would be a paragraph
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek, can you document that better
# ben_thatmustbeme you spoke fast
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: let me link to the documentation for superfeedr, (in irc), let me say that content type is also only important for fat-pings
# eprodrom q?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... with thin pings there is no content in the notification, then its outside of the spec for the subscriber to actually fetch the original URL, and then its all outside of this mechanism
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: it sounds like we could get a lot of use out of getting like 4 content types in there and that would get the 80/20
# ben_thatmustbeme ... it sounds like sandro needs to make an issue in the issue tracker
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: one of the nice effects of this is that we can treat each of these as somewhat orthoganally, and when we find one we can make tests based on that content type
# ben_thatmustbeme ... and we can just put any others at-risk
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'll just be direct, i don't think anyone is publishing as2 with pubsub, we could put it at-risk and if we need to get through CR and we don't see any implmentations, we can also spin it off in to a note and then that note can be maintained by the community group or whatever
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: its been a while, but its things like "do you send the entry or the feed with one item in it" literally that can be solved with one sentence, and that would help a lot with interop
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the only part i had on that was the different was the diffing vs the fat-ping
# eprodrom No more pings!
# ben_thatmustbeme ... the thin-ping is to send the URL only and then the diffing is seperate, if we use the fat-ping method, we have to specify what goes in to that body
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we would have to consider those two approaches independently as well
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: anything more to discuss on pubsub?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: whats the next step?
# 
sandro queues up https://soundcloud.com/fat-ping for later
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: sounds like the next step is to address the issue queue, i count around 17, with considerable discussion
# eprodrom ack tantek
# ben_thatmustbeme ... sounds like we'll be having some next steps
# eprodrom TOPIC: ActivityPub
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: hello, last week we talked about bringing AP to CR this week. We had some really involved issues that we ended up having to go through. They are all now marked as 'waiting for commentor', the 4 that were filed by bengo. I don't know what the process is on this, i have answered them with i htink an acceptable response, with the exceptions of 162. I am not quite sure what was being asked
# ben_thatmustbeme is having trouble following you on that one cwebber
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we are waiting on those 4 issues, hopefully bengo will respond within the next week
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there are some other issues, but they seem like they will be easier
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there are 2 issues i feel should be discussed in the group
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: so you have 2 issues that you need to be addressed by the group, lets try that now
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: lets get those 2 first we'll then go on to SWP and we'll come back and see what time we have for additional ones
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: 155 is potentially thorny. Someone has asked to have a history to show old revisions of an item
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i don't think that would be trivial method unless we do it in a history entry
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i feel its a bit late to add to AP core
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think it makes sense as an extension
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think it makes more sense to have a collection of activities like lifecycle, here is its creation, its edits, comments, here's its delete
# ben_thatmustbeme ... so using the activities to show the history
# ben_thatmustbeme ... that said, if you wanted to have a history property, then it would make sense that way
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i would be okay to add that with marking it at-risk, but i feel like its likely not something thought through well enough
# ben_thatmustbeme ... do you think we should put it as "for later version" and leave it as an extension for now
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i htink that makes sense
# eprodrom ack tantek
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: is it okay to mark it as later version and close it or leave it open
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i would leave it open
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the general concern here is that activity pub is basically like trying to be in CR, even though we aren't. That means we really don't get to add new features unless its a major blocker for implementation
# ben_thatmustbeme ... once we recognize that, what level of maturity is it? is it an idea? prototyped? already working for people? technically we can add anything to the spec thats within the scope of the charter, but generally we have been trying to push for people to incubate them before putting them in a working draft
# ben_thatmustbeme ... from my understanding no one has even prototyped this
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: thats my understanding too
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: great, i will respond to the issue as such
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: and encourage them and even possibly help with incubation
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i'm reasonably optimistic that we will be able to go to CR next week
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: SocialWebProtocols
# eprodrom rhiaro: ?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: there was a request for me to update SWP with new doc status, we haven't had the transition calls for LDN or PubSub so i didn't know if we wanted to wait
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think its worth it for FPWD of PubSub
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we don't actually have the transition called scheduled yet do we?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we're working on it
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we may not need it
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: there are two things we need on that call
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we are aiming to get them published next tuesday one way or another
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: are we ready to go to another WD with an update of FPWD of pubsub?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if we do a resolution, you would be able to publish it
# ben_thatmustbeme ... is there any reason not to do that, is there anything else we want in there?
# eprodrom PROPOSED: publish a new working draft of Social Web Protocols
# ben_thatmustbeme suspects rhiaro waits for me to scribe to hear what is said
# eprodrom +1
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: amy is that ok?
# eprodrom RESOLVED: publish a new working draft of Social Web Protocols
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# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: you have the resolution you need
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we are near the end of our agenda, i believe we have webmention next
# aaronpk sandro, let me know if this captures it for you https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues/27
# eprodrom TOPIC: Webmention
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: the only thing i wanted to talk about today, we that in webmention we need to change a reference to the WHATWG spec instead
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its a more up to date spec of what a URL is, especially for hte purposes of webmention
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its technically a normative change, but it won't effect any implmeentations
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: its my understanding that this is the kind of change we can make between CR and PR
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: its a change in reference between what and what?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: from RFC?? and the WHATWG URL spec?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: whats the difference between them? i'd have to run it by ralph
# ben_thatmustbeme ... if you want to just send me a draft and CC chairs
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i've seen the webapp grounps switch as well, so i think this makes sense, we're not the first group or spec doing this
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we can provide citations for that
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: and there is no intended difference?
# eprodrom q+
# eprodrom ack eprodrom
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: it should not effect implmentations, but its a more up to date reference
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: is there enough of a difference here that its worth this effort?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... can we just gloss over this and move on?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think its a due dilligence kind of detail, we're getting close to PR and this is crossing your T's and dotting your I's
# ben_thatmustbeme ... the intent was to cite what a URL was, not to specifically reference an RFC
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i think thats a good detail to fix before we go to PR
# ben_thatmustbeme .... its good that we're only talking about this kind of detail at this point
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: it makes sense to me, i just don't want to spend a lot of cycles on this unless its a worthwhile change, and it sounds like this is something everyone will be doing anyway
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# ben_thatmustbeme ... do we have other discussions on webmention?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we want a group resolution on that issue pending ralphs approval?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we might as well get it out of the way so we don't have to talk about it again
# eprodrom PROPOSED: adopt https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ as URL standard reference for Webmention
# eprodrom +1
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: aaronpk does that make sense to you?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yes
# bengo +0
# bengo Time zone fail, I showed up an hour late
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: any objections?
# eprodrom RESOLVED: adopt https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ as URL standard reference for Webmention
# bengo cwebber2 ya we can just work via github
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we are now at 5 minutes past and we are now at the end of the agenda
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i do want to come back to AP, since we were waiting for bengo. would it be woth bringing that up now?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: bengo said we can work on github as long as he can help get quick turn-around to get these done by next week
# ben_thatmustbeme bengo: i will do it right now
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: okay, anything else we need to discuss then?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: thanks for coming everyone
# eprodrom Thanks everyone
# bengo present+
# eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-social-minutes.html trackbot
# eprodrom Oh man
# eprodrom :(
# ben_thatmustbeme we can just all karma bomb csarven to fix that
# ben_thatmustbeme csarven ++
# ben_thatmustbeme csarven++
# ben_thatmustbeme wait, it didn't go up?!
# ben_thatmustbeme i know loqi does rate-limit
# ben_thatmustbeme lol
# 
tantek draft agenda posted for next week's telecon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-11-01#Discussion_Items <-- please add items!
# ben_thatmustbeme initial draft is up https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-10-25-minutes please correct any misquotes of yourself!
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# 
wilkie wrt your comment in that issue, I do try to keep the https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/resolutions page current when I scribe
# ben_thatmustbeme chameleon++
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