#social 2016-11-01

2016-11-01 UTC
jasnell, tantek, shepazu and jasnell_ joined the channel
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rhiaro
Looks like we have a new CR and PR y'all \o/
Karli, Karli_, jasnell, sandro, tantek and jasnell_ joined the channel
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aaronpk
if we're gonna rename this, i want to settle on the new name ASAP https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-11-01-08-17-56.png
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tantek
so far all the alternatives proposed have been worse, and the remaining complaints seem to be mostly tempests in teapots
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rhiaro
votes for HubHubPubbub
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rhiaro
HubbityHubHub
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tantek
does anyone have any serious suggestions? or serious reasons to justify existing suggestions?
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rhiaro
I think including Hub in it is a useful distinction from the generic idea
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tantek
rhiaro: the generic idea can be "pubsub"
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rhiaro
that's the point
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aaronpk
the generic idea already *is* pubsub
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rhiaro
that's why the specific spec should be distinguished
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aaronpk
google "pubsub" and you will find lots of different pubsub things, in many different incarnations
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aaronpk
this spec is one specific incarnation of the pubsub idea
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tantek
nah, the spec is PubSub, upper camel case as it were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_case#Variations_and_synonyms
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rhiaro
and having Hub not at the end, I understand helps with pronunciation
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tantek
right
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aaronpk
what's the distinguishing feature of this pubsub over others?
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rhiaro
So I think HubPub is cool
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aaronpk
I would say HTTP
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rhiaro
(or HubSub)
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tantek
it's fine, it's not the first time a generic concept word has been used to name a specific technology
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tantek
people will get used to it
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tantek
and frankly, within days of people blogging about it, it will become discoverable in search results
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tantek
so all those complaints are moot
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aaronpk
eh, there's a lot of pubsub things before this will bubble to the top
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aaronpk
the two big ones, which will probably lead to some confusion, are https://cloud.google.com/pubsub/docs/ and http://redis.io/topics/pubsub
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tantek
Google Cloud post-dates PuSH so that should not be a problem
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tantek
wait they both use "Pub/Sub"
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tantek
so that's done
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rhiaro
if you google 'pubsub' everything that shows up is 'pub/sub'
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tantek
rhiaro, like I said, that'll be fixed over time
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aaronpk
huh, this sounds a lot like pubsubhubbub http://wamp-proto.org/faq/#pubsub
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tantek
just write a series of posts on "Introducing W3C PubSub"
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tantek
and "How to add PubSub support" etc.
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tantek
the key aspects to PuSH are the Pub and the Sub. The use of a separate Hub is optional.
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rhiaro
oh really? I thought the hub was like the point
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tantek
so from a naming meaning perspective, keeping Pub and Sub are essential, and Hub not so much (in following up to rhiaro's suggestion of PubSubHub or PubHub or HubPub - which sounds too much like Hubbub)
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aaronpk
the hub is core to the idea
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aaronpk
it doesn't have to be a third party hub, but it has to be there
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tantek
it can be the same server as the pub, that's the point
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aaronpk
sure but you'd still link to it with rel=hub
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wilkie
PubSub is Hub-Scale
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ben_thatmustbeme
all the hubbub over pubsub vs pubhub vs subhub vs blubblub just rubrubs me as pointless. lets just scrubscrub our hands of it, stick with pubsub and go get some grubgrub
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rhiaro
can we just call it Hubbub?
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rhiaro
that sets the tone, right?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm at the point where i really don't care. bikeshedding a name is a waste of brain cycles. so I just say we stick with pubsub
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ben_thatmustbeme
PubSub rather, keep the camel case
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wilkie
I'd rather it be something other than PubSub and I don't really care what that is heh
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aaronpk
yeah i'm with wilkie :)
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rhiaro
yeah, what wilkie said
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aaronpk
"PolSuc" short for "polling sucks"
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rhiaro
IfYouAreTooTiredToSendStuffOutDelegateItToSomeOtherServer
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cwebber2
antipoll
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wilkie
Relegated Stream Synchronization ... wait no
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aaronpk
wilkie++
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Loqi
wilkie has 39 karma
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rhiaro
SomeOtherServer for short... SOS
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ben_thatmustbeme
polling.sucks may be an available URL
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ben_thatmustbeme
lets seriously break it down.
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ben_thatmustbeme
its a non polling method of pushing updates out to subscribers
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ben_thatmustbeme
updates via push
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aaronpk
push aka deliver
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rhiaro
via a hub tho
tantek joined the channel
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rhiaro
delegation
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cwebber2
delete-hub, a remove-only federation system
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aaronpk
like "yo" except you can only delete things
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cwebber2
like an append-only datastructure in reverse
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ben_thatmustbeme
Delegated Delivery via Hub
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aaronpk
that's very descriptive
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ben_thatmustbeme
Delivery Hub
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rhiaro
love delete hub
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rhiaro
files that for later
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aaronpk
it's also a broadcast mechanism
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aaronpk
HubCast
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rhiaro
is Delivery Hub like Deliveroo?
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wilkie
relegated delivery, relegated push/publishing, relegated sending, ReleSent
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rhiaro
ooh HubCast rolls off the tongue
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rhiaro
if it has
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rhiaro
'delivery' in it it makes me want to know if it helps me get pizza
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aaronpk
it also appears HubCast is not already a technology term
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wilkie
it could technically!
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ben_thatmustbeme
CastHub sounds a little better to be
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rhiaro
I think the H being in the middle was difficult
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aaronpk
nah then there's the "th" confusion
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rhiaro
ooh and that
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rhiaro
CasThub kind of loses the ring
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aaronpk
ThubThub
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rhiaro
HubCast is pretty excellent
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ben_thatmustbeme
HubCast is cool with me
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ben_thatmustbeme
who is going to run it by Julien
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wilkie
as long as it isn't PubSub
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wilkie
wait... HubCast is Not PubSub
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rhiaro
it appears to be a printing solution
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rhiaro
but that's okay
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ben_thatmustbeme
sadly we lose the recognition of it just being PubSubHubbub clean-up
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aaronpk
hopefully julien is on the call today
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ben_thatmustbeme
no longer cares honestly
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rhiaro
Hmm. HubCast sounds nice, but maybe loses the point. Gah.
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aaronpk
i think it still describes it
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aaronpk
using a hub to broadcast from a feed
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rhiaro
extends meeting 60 minutes to compensate for this discussion
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ben_thatmustbeme
will not be in the meeting today
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wilkie
HubFeeder
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rhiaro
ooh feeder lets you have all kinds of monster-type logos
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aaronpk
thinks we should stay away from "feed" as that is too closely tied to RSS
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ben_thatmustbeme
PubSubHubCasterFeedrYummyYumWithoutPollingOrAnything
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wilkie
we can't use feed and we also can't use stream then
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aaronpk
I kind of like "HubCast", let's let that sit for a while
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sandro
I like HubCast, but do worry about losing the PuSH recognition
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sandro
How about WebCast? (j/k)
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rhiaro
hubcast.pub is available :p
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wilkie
HubCast and Hubbub are both good at not being PubSub
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aaronpk
PubSubHubCast
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wilkie
oooh pub is a tld right
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csarven
Can we cram more terms in there? Just to cover everything/
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wilkie
HubPub
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cwebber2
sub.human
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wilkie
that one's a downer
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cwebber2
pubsub.cat
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rhiaro
I'm glad we got this out of the way before the call
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rhiaro
out of our systems
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wilkie
we haven't actually gotten it out of the way yet
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rhiaro
well, getting there
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wilkie
let's just market poll HubCast, HubPub, Hubbub, and PubSub
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aaronpk
hubcast++
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Loqi
hubcast has 1 karma
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wilkie
I'm now leaning away from cast because it seems the data is meant to be emphemeral haha
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Loqi
wilkie: lol
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rhiaro
phub++
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Loqi
phub has 1 karma
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rhiaro
that's a good noise
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aaronpk
hm, i guess that still makes sense to me, since the notification itself is ephemeral
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cwebber2
p.*hub may expand to things not desired
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cwebber2
speaking of "good noises" could we just call it "psh"
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cwebber2
Pub Sub Hubbub
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cwebber2
the world's most self-discmissive spec name
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ben_thatmustbeme
PushCast? so we don't lost recognition of PuSH?
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aaronpk
not bad
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wilkie
we can make good use of PuSH already having a long history of being called pubsubbubhubbubbub in face-to-face conversation
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aaronpk
i'm gonna tweetpoll that
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wilkie
add pshhhh as a control response
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aaronpk
i can only add 4 options :(
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wilkie
to make it scientific
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wilkie
haha ok
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csarven
Can someone remind me why we decided not to stick to the original name?
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Loqi
[@b0rk] slowly learning a few things about distributed systems https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwJTqQTWcAA173h.jpg
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cwebber2
b0rk is great
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wilkie
AS2 doesn't have such an archaic limitation
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Loqi
[@aaronpk] Naming things is hard. Help us out. We are considering a new name for https://www.w3.org/TR/pubsub/ #w3c
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wilkie
Julia is the nicest person too
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sandro
csarven, I think every agrees pubsubhubbub us an awkwardly long name for a tech, and PuSH is awkwardly ambiguous and misleading
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sandro
(which doesn't mean we should change it, just that that name has some negatives.)
annbass and tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk
wow i'm getting more replies than i expected
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annbass
/me wonders if she's here
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wilkie
annbass: hello!
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annbass
Yay! In a car, driving north
KevinMarks joined the channel
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tantek
hmm, my "phone" calling app keeps crashing
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tantek
force quits a bunch of other iOS apps
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tantek
launches his "phone" app successfully
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tantek
so whoever claims force quitting iOS apps doesn't do anything is wrong
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rhiaro
oh right call time
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rhiaro
is it call time?
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rhiaro
googles
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rhiaro
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 01 November 2016
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aaronpk
present+
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tantek
present+
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annbass
Present+
julien joined the channel
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rhiaro
present+
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, tantek, annbass, rhiaro
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Zakim
... csarven, pdurbin, bigbluehat, bitbear, dwhly, ElijahLynn, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, rrika, rhiaro, trackbot
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Zakim
On IRC I see julien, Zakim, RRSAgent, KevinMarks, tantek, annbass, jasnell_, sandro, shepazu, ben_thatmustbeme, KjetilK, wseltzer, strugee, oshepherd, cwebber2, wilkie, raucao,
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rhiaro
cracks knuckles
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rhiaro
scribenick: rhiaro
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sandro
present+
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, tantek, annbass, rhiaro, sandro
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Zakim
On IRC I see julien, Zakim, RRSAgent, KevinMarks, tantek, annbass, jasnell_, sandro, shepazu, ben_thatmustbeme, KjetilK, wseltzer, strugee, oshepherd, cwebber2, wilkie, raucao,
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Zakim
... csarven, pdurbin, bigbluehat, bitbear, dwhly, ElijahLynn, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, rrika, rhiaro, trackbot
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wilkie
present+
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cwebber2
present+
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Upcoming f2f
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rhiaro
tantek: 6 people signed up
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rhiaro
... and some remote
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rhiaro
... not too bad
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julien
I am trying to call in
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rhiaro
... could use more
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cwebber2
oh yeah sorry
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rhiaro
... cwebber2, add yourself if you're coming
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cwebber2
I'll be there
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Loqi
Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8)
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annbass
Regrets for F2F
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rhiaro
TOPIC: approval of minutes 2016-10-25
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> +1
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> +1
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julien
present+
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rhiaro
TOPIC: CR status for LDN
KevinMarks2 joined the channel
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rhiaro
sorry scribing
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rhiaro
rhiaro: Approved and published
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rhiaro
tantek: congrats, fastest to publication from FPWD
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rhiaro
... Announcement should go out soon
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rhiaro
... Spread the word
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Webmention PR status
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rhiaro
rhiaro: Approved yesterday, published today
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rhiaro
tantek: this is our first PR, congrats
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annbass
wOOt!!!
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rhiaro
... The announcement goes out, to the AC for a vote
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rhiaro
... Composed of w3c members and assuming a sufficient number of them say yes, and no formal objections, it proceeds to rec
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rhiaro
... I forget how many weeks they have to vote
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rhiaro
... I think it's 4
KevinMarks joined the channel
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rhiaro
... In particular I want to encourage everyone who has yet to file an implementation report to please do so
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rhiaro
... And for LDN as well
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rhiaro
... Instructions are in the drafts
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rhiaro
... But for the PR, now it's going to every member of W3C that they need to vote on
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rhiaro
... one of the things they look at is who is implementing it, how many there are
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rhiaro
... These might be people who have never heard of it before
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rhiaro
... So the more implementations we have, the more it looks like ther'es a community, it looks real
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rhiaro
... I would recommend that our other CRs look at that and see if they can use the pattern in terms of providing a summary
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rhiaro
... aaronpk, any comments?
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rhiaro
aaronpk: I don't think I have anything to add
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sandro
FWIW -- LDN FPWD -> CR in 98 days (aka 3.2 months aka 14 weeks)
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rhiaro
tantek: It appears that there are more implementation reports than there are in the summary, correct? Is it behind?
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rhiaro
aaronpk: I think the summary is up to date
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rhiaro
... there are more things in that folder than are in the summary, but they're not all reports
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rhiaro
tantek: I was seeing ten implementation reports
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rhiaro
aaronpk: yeah there are ten in the summary and in the folder
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
TOPIC: AS2 CR-> PR status
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tantek
zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, tantek, annbass, rhiaro, sandro, wilkie, cwebber, julien
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wilkie
evan sent regrets
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rhiaro
evan sent regrets
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Zakim
On IRC I see KevinMarks, julien, Zakim, RRSAgent, tantek, annbass, jasnell_, sandro, shepazu, ben_thatmustbeme, KjetilK, wseltzer, strugee, oshepherd, cwebber2, wilkie, raucao,
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Zakim
... csarven, pdurbin, bigbluehat, bitbear, dwhly, ElijahLynn, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, rrika, rhiaro, trackbot
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rhiaro
tantek: Any sign of Evan or James?
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aaronpk
tantek disappeared
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rhiaro
... okay, skip until james shows up
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cwebber2
heard tantek fine
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aaronpk
maybe it was on my end then
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rhiaro
TOPIC: AP WD->CR
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rhiaro
cwebber2: We're ready!
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rhiaro
... So let me link...
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rhiaro
... This is the transition req document
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rhiaro
... The current Ed which we had discussed releasing a new WD of, with a changelog
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rhiaro
... I have the links to the implementation report and test suite, but they're not in place. I just registered the domain. They're is not actually anything there, I was told I need to get the stubs in there
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rhiaro
sandro: but there will be at least a landing page?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: There will be yeah
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rhiaro
... No problem
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rhiaro
... I just got that in place last night
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rhiaro
... In terms of wide review, I've collected in addition to issues the offlist feedback Iv'e had
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rhiaro
... That I've requested I can make it public, there are very large amounts of detailed feedback here from people outside the group
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rhiaro
... I think this is in a good state
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rhiaro
... So I'll hadn off to tantek to ask what the next step is and if we can request a vote to move to CR
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rhiaro
tantek: Open issues?
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rhiaro
... I know you've been working really hard on those
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rhiaro
cwebber2: The only issues left open are all editorial, except for one which is postponed that we talked about last week
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rhiaro
... one is get AP terms in the AS2 namespace
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rhiaro
... and the test suite one
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rhiaro
... Everything else in there is editorial
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rhiaro
sandro: the non-editorial ones are todo list items?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Right
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rhiaro
tantek: *sounds of thinking*
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rhiaro
... Having links in the draft should satisfy the test suite and reporting section..
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I'll close the issue then
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rhiaro
tantek: I believe that's covered, not an issue against the draft
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annbass
(rhiaro's scribing makes me smile)
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rhiaro
... The AP terms and AS2 context, I'm not entirely sure what that needs
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rhiaro
rhiaro: I took that as a todo, still haven't done it, will do
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rhiaro
^^^^^^
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rhiaro
sandro: as extensions to AS2?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: rhiaro and I need to work on making sure that happens
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rhiaro
rhiaro: I'm on it, just haven't done it yet
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rhiaro
tantek: if you want to add that to the CR transition request as something that we'll call out so ralph can see we're taking care of it
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> I'd hope to have that done before the transition call, but yeah
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rhiaro
tantek: if we can get to CR before the f2f that would be great
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rhiaro
... This is awesome, as far as I can tell you've checked off all the itmes
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rhiaro
... Anyone else?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
PROPOSED: transition ActivityPub draft at http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/ to CR
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> +1 :D
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rhiaro
I note that csarven added a +1 to this last week on the wiki
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annbass
Indeed, kudos to cwebber2
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rhiaro
tantek: you've had more last minute issues than any other spec we've seen chris, so that's a lot of hard work, well done
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sandro
csarven: +1 by proxy
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tantek
RESOLVED: transition ActivityPub draft at http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/ to CR
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rhiaro
YAY ANOTHER ONE
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annbass
Woohoo!
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rhiaro
tantek: rhiaro, setup a transition call, let's make this happen
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rhiaro
... I don't see any issues with the call based on our experience to date
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rhiaro
cwebber2: another happy bit of news is we had someone external email me and plan to do an implementation and even put it on the site of the thing they're working on
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rhiaro
... a federated hackernews/reddit alternative
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annbass
That's neat!
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rhiaro
it's not even 0230 you mean :p
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rhiaro
TOPIC: PubSub WD->CR status
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rhiaro
tantek: julien?
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rhiaro
also rerename
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rhiaro
julien: there are a lot of open issues, we've discussed and closed
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rhiaro
... The naming issue is still bothering me. I don't know what to do here.
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rhiaro
tantek: let's take that last
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rhiaro
... Any other issues you might want our help with?
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rhiaro
julien: Looks like there are 23 open issues. Are there any that you believe you could make faster pgoress on with input from the group?
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rhiaro
s/julien/tantek
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cwebber2
ohhh shoot
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rhiaro
julien: fat pings vs thin pings... I was very confused by the turn of the discussion
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rhiaro
... I thought fat pings were the way to go
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rhiaro
... but obviously not everyone thinks that
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cwebber2
+q for after PuSH talk to vote on new WD of AP
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
... two issues around it
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rhiaro
... also 27
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack cwebber
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Zakim
cwebber, you wanted to discuss after PuSH talk to vote on new WD of AP
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
TOPIC: back to AP briefly
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rhiaro
PROPOSAL: publish existing ED as a WD immediately
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tantek
PROPOSED: http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/ as a new WD of ActivityPub
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rhiaro
mine wasn't very specific
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rhiaro
panic typing
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cwebber2
FYN proposals
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tantek
RESOLVED: publish http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/ as a new WD of ActivityPub
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rhiaro
TOPIC: back to PubSubSomething
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rhiaro
tantek: back to fat pings and thin pings
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rhiaro
... what's required and what's not
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
aaronpk: This is about issue 27, I created this to try to ask for help finding documentation on current behaviour of fat pings
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rhiaro
... In my research I was not able to find much about the actual payload that's sent in fat pings
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rhiaro
... We have some links now
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csarven
Sorry.. was AFK. +1 :)
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rhiaro
... But I'm still not super happy with the state of this
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rhiaro
... The main goal of this thread was if the spec is going to recommend or rquire that fat pings are used it absolutely must say what the payload is
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rhiaro
... Otherwise it's not really useful as a suggestion
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rhiaro
... So I was hoping to collect examples of what people are sending in order to turn that into the recommendation of what the content is
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rhiaro
julien: for wordpress and google and superfeedr, we tried to point to the PuSH spec which we thought was giving a good description of the contents of the payload
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rhiaro
... being a diff of what was being subscribed to
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rhiaro
... this needs clarification in the spec now
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rhiaro
... the hub MUST send fat pings, but we cna't prevent the subscriber from ignoring that fat ping
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rhiaro
aaronpk: that makes sense
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rhiaro
... the other source of confusion is the spec describes this vague idea of diffingw ithout actually saying it works
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rhiaro
julien: that's a problem I've had for a long time
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rhiaro
... diffing has different meanings based on the content type
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rhiaro
... you could diff on the entry level... what does it mean for a json document?
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rhiaro
... I'm not sure what's the right approach here
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rhiaro
... I'd rather diff based on the capabilities of the content type
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rhiaro
... rather than a dumb diff on the text level
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rhiaro
... but if we have to do that to make the spec forward, but I'd rather not
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rhiaro
aaronpk: that's why I wanted to collect examples of what is done with rss, atom, html, json, and looking at actual examples
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rhiaro
... but I couldn't find any
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rhiaro
... I totally agree having content type specific idffing is way more useful
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rhiaro
... but I couldn't find what is being done right now
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
julien: We talk about diffing, maybe there's room for saying that rather than diffing by default the hub sends the full content of the resource and the client has to find what is new or different in the payload
#
rhiaro
... that would basically mean the hub doesn't have to deal with diffing
#
rhiaro
... the subscriber has to find a way to identify what's missing, new or updated
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: I think that's an acceptable solution
#
wilkie
diff'ing as an extension
#
rhiaro
sandro: I'm a big fan of ... there are conflicting things between simplicity and efficiency
#
tantek
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... simplicity would be just send the new content, but in some cases that would be painfully inefficient and we'd wish we could send a diff
#
rhiaro
... In terms of technology for diffs, within the general http stack I think that's mostly under patch, right?
#
rhiaro
... I dont' know how much the PATCH verb has caught on. I've seen a couple of media types, two different json patch media types
#
rhiaro
... that seems like th eright... however people are using PATCH
#
rhiaro
... if you're using json-patch to patch json,t hen presumably you should be sending that as your fat ping
#
rhiaro
... on a json resource
#
rhiaro
julien: then the spec would just leave ?? the right diffing mechanism to each content type
#
rhiaro
... if you're using json you us ejson-patch, if your'e using rss/atom then you do per entry
#
tantek
good question re: PATCH (how much has it caught on?). IMO from a newish W3C process perspective, PATCH has been insufficiently incubated (not enough actual prototyping to show that it's worth depending on).
#
rhiaro
sandro: the problem with that is that there isn't one... there are at least 2 different json-patch protocols
#
rhiaro
julien: it's worse for images, how do you diff an image?
#
rhiaro
sandro: I think if you don't have a good diff mechanism... you could do it, complicates the protocol maybe, when you're sending a patch the way you're supposed to know what media type ot use is you get an accept-patch header earlier in the process
#
rhiaro
... if we can fit that in the hub could, if it gets an accept patch, and it knows how to do that media type,then it MAY or SHOULD send patches using that
#
tantek
q+ to note need to separate what we *could* do with PubSub, vs. what documenting (specing) what we believe implementations *already do*
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... if it doesn't know that, it sends the whole content
#
rhiaro
julien: that's exactly how superfeedr works
#
rhiaro
... at the hub level we look at the accept header upon subscription
#
rhiaro
... if they accept json we do the conversion form rss to json
#
rhiaro
... and when the content updates we send the json rather than rss
#
rhiaro
... this could work for me, saying what the subscriber provides defines what the hub sends in the notification
#
rhiaro
... and we need a way for the hub to tell the subscriber that it doesn't understand the accep theader
#
rhiaro
sandro: There is this accept patch header in rfc
#
rhiaro
... we have to see what the logic there is, along with the logic pubsub uses, and see if they can fit together
#
rhiaro
tantek: sounds like you and aaron were coming to some common understanding?
#
rhiaro
julien: I'll start working on the summary and then aaron we can iterate from there
#
rhiaro
tantek: sounds good
#
tantek
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to note need to separate what we *could* do with PubSub, vs. what documenting (specing) what we believe implementations *already do*
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... I think it's good to consider how pubsub could do this in ideal conditions, maybe in the future. However for the purposes of what we need to scope and ship in this WG we need to limit ourselves to what we believe implementations already do and use that as a very strong constraint
#
rhiaro
... If there is a potentially better solution with diffing or patch or something which we don't know or we don't know of any implementations, that may be worth opening as a separate issue, as like an enhancement request, but not necessarily for this version of pubsub
#
rhiaro
... which I believe pretty strongly we need to constrain to what we have implementations doing today
#
rhiaro
... so we can get it through the w3c process
#
rhiaro
sandro: I agree that makes sense
#
rhiaro
... it may be that diffs and patch are all a straightforward obvious extesnion and the part we standardise here is always about sending the whole content
#
rhiaro
... I'm prefectly comfortable with that
#
rhiaro
... and efficeincy being an extension
#
rhiaro
tantek: we're not trying to shut down discussion, its' good for us to keep an open mind
#
rhiaro
... and yes, document it
#
rhiaro
... if it ends up that solidifies into an extension that we can tell people to start playing with, that's great, but it's a different scope and timeline than the pubsub spec itself
#
rhiaro
... we might even manage to publish an extension as a note, but I don't think I'd want that to delay the spec itself
#
rhiaro
... just my opinion
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... not a chair statement
#
rhiaro
... Sounds like we have a good understanding of issues 27 and 35
#
rhiaro
... sandro, could you open that as an enhancement request issue
#
rhiaro
... julien if you could separate the optimal way form what implementations to today
#
rhiaro
julien: will do
#
rhiaro
tantek: what next?
#
rhiaro
julien: most of the other ones are either fixes that are obvious or clear decisions, eg. the algorithms in the signature
#
rhiaro
... I don't think there are other significant ones, but maybe someone will disagree... one oabout the verbs but I don't thin it's worth changing what we've done so far
#
rhiaro
... 28
#
rhiaro
... The current spec was not 'rest' enough
#
rhiaro
... we were using GET and POST in ways that did not necessarily abide by the rest philosophy
#
rhiaro
scribe got lost because of skype
#
rhiaro
is too easily distracted
#
rhiaro
someone stop your skype pls
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... I think the current spec is fine
#
rhiaro
... makes a reasonable distinction
#
rhiaro
sorry
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: I agree no change is needed for that. Seems to be a slightly unusual use of a GET but not the end of the world, and it's what everyone does already
#
rhiaro
tantek: is there a security issue with potential misuse of get?
#
rhiaro
julien: one person also suggested that we use a signature mechanism for setting up subscription
#
rhiaro
... and I think that would solve security misuse of GET in that context
#
rhiaro
tantek: do you have a proposed resolution?
#
rhiaro
... I'm not hearing a lot of dispute
#
rhiaro
julien: what I"ll do is put a longer comment in the issue thread and maybe not close it right away, and ask for feedback
#
rhiaro
tantek: okay, we'll leave it open for now
#
rhiaro
... if it comes ot a point wher eyou're not making any progress but you feel like you have some consensus, then bring it back to the WG so we can close it and move forward
#
rhiaro
sandro: This is one of these cases where this comes up with a potentially breaking change. We're all tryign to do this without any breaking changes so that all existing implementatios remain conformant. If we have to do a breaking change we'll think long and hard about it. right?
#
rhiaro
julien: Definitely to try to maintain everything or at least provide only little change. This would be very significant
#
rhiaro
tantek: I tend to agree. I personally would need to see for a breaking change, a security flaw that would motivate the current implementations to update
#
rhiaro
... Anything short of that I'm not sure I would support
#
rhiaro
sandro: I'd be hesitant to do anything that would fork the community into people who are still using pre-w3c PuSH
#
rhiaro
... I want them to be on board without doing anything
#
rhiaro
tantek: maybe that's something we can resolve
#
rhiaro
sandro: I don't think we need to make a formal policy
#
rhiaro
tantek: okay
#
rhiaro
julien: and then... the naming.
#
rhiaro
aaronpk, you have twitter poll results in?
#
aaronpk
PushCast is in the lead
#
rhiaro
I LOVE that hubbub got loads of vote
#
rhiaro
that was a joke
#
rhiaro
tantek: I don't really want to use twitter poll sfor this type of thing...
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: an interesting survey of people who are not us, not a deciding factor
#
rhiaro
sandro: one of the problems I have with pubsubhubbub as a name is the abbreviate of PuSH. This is not 'push' as a web developer understands it
#
rhiaro
... specifically server to client, which is not the webhook kind of thing that this is
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: that's true, and also server to phone, apple and google's push apis
#
rhiaro
sandro: push is all the way to the end user, not an internal node to node like pubsubhubbub is
#
annbass
Seems like a good point, from a 'novice' Point of view
#
rhiaro
tantek: I guess I always thought of what you're calling push as server push... I can see your poing
#
rhiaro
s/poing/point
#
cwebber2
new name! Node2Node
#
rhiaro
julien: this is just one of the problems with the naming
#
annbass
(That would be me... the novice)
#
rhiaro
... pubsub also has a lot of other meanings
#
rhiaro
... all of the names have been used before for something else
#
sandro
websub ?
#
rhiaro
... hard to find somehting both new and descriptvie
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
tantek: let me try to roll this back. We had a strong consensus to go with pubsub last time we discussed this, f2f in Lisbon
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... to change that we're going to need new information that we did not come up with in the discussion
#
rhiaro
... We knew pubsub was generic backthen, we decided to go with it anyway
#
cwebber2
aw phone disconnected :(
#
cwebber2
ok, what I was going to say, I think we agreed on pubsub for the short name
#
rhiaro
... we knew that it was superior to pubsubhubbub in terms of pronunctiation, especially for non-native English speakers
#
cwebber2
for ids at least
#
rhiaro
totally, cwebber2
#
rhiaro
tantek: any actually new information?
#
rhiaro
sandro: I hadn't thought about the search problem when we had that discussion
#
cwebber2
personally I don't care if we leave it as pubsubhubbub... at least people know what that is
#
rhiaro
... like in regsitries, not just search engines, don't have smart search
#
cwebber2
names: the infinite bikeshed
#
rhiaro
julien: definitely, the name is taken everywehre
#
rhiaro
tantek: the web search arguement I'm not as worried about
#
rhiaro
... pubsubhubbub has a lot of history and uptake in the past so it's easier to find
#
rhiaro
(also a distinctive name..(
#
rhiaro
... web search is a lagging indicator of uptake
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
sandro: the name pubsub is never going to be unambiguous
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... in a respository or software directory
#
rhiaro
... eg. redis has a pubsub, their modules show up as well
#
rhiaro
tantek: so if it's already a problem why should we ..?
#
rhiaro
sandro: It's nice for us to steer clear
#
rhiaro
<rhiaro> I have
#
rhiaro
<rhiaro> I didn't think of the search/generic thing
#
cwebber2
I don't have strong opinions but
#
rhiaro
tantek: anyone else changed their mind since f2f?
#
cwebber2
I think pubsubhubbub is a fine choice
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: I have
#
cwebber2
it has problems, but we have nothing better
#
cwebber2
and at least it has well known history
#
cwebber2
we can keep pubsub as w3c shortid
#
aaronpk
"Use shortname of pubsub for shortname for now"
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: In our meeting minutes we did specifically resolve to use pubsub as the short name for now
#
rhiaro
sandro: it's not like we talked about it a whole lot at the f2f
#
cwebber2
I'm also ok with pushcast
#
rhiaro
<rhiaro> I definitely don't think we agreed to use it as main name, only shortname
#
cwebber2
my memory is only shortname too
#
rhiaro
tantek: My recollection was that we resolved on both
#
rhiaro
q+ different
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, different on the speaker queue
#
annbass
Can we use pubsub, but w acronym different than 'PuSh'
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, different on the speaker queue
#
tantek
q- different
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
tantek
q+ rhiaro
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, rhiaro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
sandro: one middleground is the same way pubsubhubbu is abbreviated PuSH we could keep using pubsub as a convenient reference to pubsubhubbub
#
Zakim
sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... but the full name is pubsubhubbub
#
rhiaro
... but we refer to it as pubsub for convienience
#
annbass
Approx the same as what I was suggesting
#
rhiaro
is sick of typing pubsubhubbub, please can we change it
#
rhiaro
tantek: we could continue discussing
#
rhiaro
... The issue doesn't seem like a productive way to having this discusson
#
rhiaro
... Or we could open a wiki page that lists each of the serious proposals for a name, incluidng the original
#
Zakim
sees rhiaro, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... and people can document the pros and cons of each
#
rhiaro
... and that way we capture the current state of why any particular name is good or bad
#
rhiaro
... and also they could put a +1 or -1 and name next to any one
#
annbass
Would it be a public discussion? Or only us?
#
sandro
public
#
rhiaro
oh, hubbub, please
#
rhiaro
tantek: use this wiki page for this discussion
#
rhiaro
... reasonable?
#
cwebber2
sounds fine
#
Zakim
sees rhiaro, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... We should document this in case in the future namechange comes up again
#
Zakim
sees rhiaro, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack rhiaro
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
annbass
If this isn't traditional push, then does that wiki name confuse things?
#
rhiaro
rhiaro: my recollection from the f2f is that we resolved only on the short name, and expected to change the spec name
#
wilkie
push is the old name
#
tantek
push is the old abbr
#
rhiaro
annbass: I think it's important not to bias the discussion, is calling the wiki page push going to confuse things?
#
rhiaro
tantek: push was the old short name
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack cwebber
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
cwebber2, you're cutting out
#
cwebber2
ok, I'll type on here
#
cwebber2
I think the wiki page is great, but naming also the ultimate bikeshed
#
cwebber2
I suggest everyone get their stuff on the wiki
#
cwebber2
and we don't spend more than another week on it
#
rhiaro
tantek: that's a perfectly reasonable proposal
#
rhiaro
... perhaps add as a comment on the issue and we can proceed from there
#
rhiaro
... is that the last thing?
#
cwebber2
last thing from me!
#
rhiaro
julien: Anyone else have pubsub issues?
#
rhiaro
TOPIC: SWP
#
rhiaro
TOPIC: PubSub
#
rhiaro
tantek: test suite plans for pubsub
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: I have a list of all of the componants to test and I have the framework now, website set up, will make progress on actually creating some of the tests
#
rhiaro
WHO IS THAT
#
tantek
SERIOUSLY
#
rhiaro
sandro: great
#
rhiaro
... julien, you understand aaron is working on it, have you been talking?
#
rhiaro
julien: we haven't been talking yet
#
rhiaro
tantek: is there a url?
#
rhiaro
tantek bingo
#
tantek
rhiaro lol
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: best place to follow is the issues on this repo
#
julien
feel free to share the repo aaron
#
rhiaro
... If we rename the spec I'll get a new .rocks domain
#
rhiaro
sandro: do we somewhere have a list of implementations? at least hubs?
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: the only list I know of is on the indieweb wiki
#
rhiaro
tantek: julien?
#
rhiaro
julien: I know there was one on google code, that's gone... I'll try to find one
#
rhiaro
sandro: looks like 5 hubs, which is great
#
rhiaro
... just wanted to figure out if we'll be able tog et through CR quickly
#
rhiaro
tantek: tons of publishers right
#
rhiaro
... half dozen hubs, subscribers?
#
rhiaro
sandro: not sure about subscribers
#
rhiaro
tantek: is that subscribers?
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: uh yeah
#
rhiaro
tantek: I think one of those is defunct?
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: that's my fault
#
rhiaro
tantek: so 3 we know of for 0.4
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: I'm sure there are tons more
#
rhiaro
sandro: publisher and subscriber are pretty easy
#
rhiaro
<rhiaro> unless subscriber needs to do diffing :p
#
rhiaro
tantek: we'll have tests for all three
#
rhiaro
... Test suite is i development
#
rhiaro
... Is that good enough to link to from the draft?
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: if you want to link to something from the draft link to the .rocks domain, or wait until we finalise the name
#
rhiaro
tantek: I guess we just file an issue on the spec to link
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... Any other issues about pubsub?
#
rhiaro
has an issue regarding going to bed
#
rhiaro
TOPIC: SWP
#
rhiaro
tantek: new WD with updated statuses?
#
rhiaro
rhiaro: yes
#
tantek
PROPOSED: published new WD of SWP with updated status of our drafts
#
tantek
RESOLVED: publish new WD of SWP with updated status of our drafts
#
rhiaro
TOPIC: Any other docs with updates?
#
rhiaro
tantek: next week we're meeting on the 8th, evan is chair, and all of our daylight savings should be gone by next week
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
isn't that the election or something?
#
rhiaro
how will everyoen be feeling?
#
annbass
Don't remind us
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
rhiaro
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, tantek, annbass, rhiaro, sandro, wilkie, cwebber, julien
#
annbass
Kudos galore to rhiaro and Tantek!
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/01-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
cwebber2
tantek++
#
Loqi
tantek has 48 karma in this channel (309 overall)
#
cwebber2
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 135 karma in this channel (246 overall)
#
cwebber2
thanks for chairing & scribing respectively
#
tantek
trackbot, end meeting
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, tantek, annbass, rhiaro, sandro, wilkie, cwebber, julien
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
sandro
rhiaro, are you still on?
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
sandro
rhiaro, yes
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
rhiaro
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/01-social-minutes.html rhiaro
#
rhiaro
grumbles RRSAgent please do it faster
#
aaronpk
the write-in votes have been fun http://twtr.io/1JjQUD36MDb
#
Loqi
[@jjooee] @aaronpk ◯ Subscrublishub
KevinMarks joined the channel
KevinMarks and KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
@DataG
Linked Data Notifications | W3C specification https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/
(twitter.com/_/status/793532333001277440)
KjetilK_ joined the channel
#
Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
Loqi
bye Zakim!
KevinMarks, jasnell and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
amy, sandro - do you know how we (chairs / staff) can make blog posts here: https://www.w3.org/blog/ (as other WG chairs (including non-W3C-team people) seem to be able to) ?
#
tantek
s/amy/rhiaro
#
tantek
!tell rhiaro,sandro do you know how we (chairs / staff) can make blog posts here: https://www.w3.org/blog/ (as other WG chairs (including non-W3C-team people) seem to be able to) ?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next