#social 2016-12-13

2016-12-13 UTC
bblfish, tantek, shepazu, timbl and jasnell joined the channel
#
rrika whoops I forgot my bouncer was connected here
#
aaronpk looks like someone else needs a bouncer
bblfish, jasnell, shepazu, jasnell_, wilkie, bblfish_, tantek and fabrixxm joined the channel
#
cwebber2 yes
#
cwebber2 chris
#
cwebber2 was getting tea
#
rhiaro Hola
annbass joined the channel
#
cwebber2 no chairs no rules
#
cwebber2 party time
#
ben_thatmustbeme dances
#
csarven argh.. I pressed all those numbers for nothing?
#
csarven I'm on rotary even
#
ben_thatmustbeme #thirdworldproblems
#
ben_thatmustbeme woops
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme #firstworldproblems
#
sandro http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/vocabulary/#changelog
#
Loqi sandro: tantek left you a message 6 days, 22 hours ago: can you give us a brief public update on where we are with Webmention? How did the vote go? When do we hear from W3C team about PR comments and any requests for edits before REC?
#
Loqi [James M Snell] Activity Vocabulary
#
ben_thatmustbeme is picturing rhiaro with only one eye open right now just sort of falling asleep at the computer
#
ben_thatmustbeme i can scribe
#
sandro trackbot, start meeting
#
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/13-social-irc
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
#
trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
#
RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim ok, trackbot
#
trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot Date: 13 December 2016
#
ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
#
ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: AS2
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we made a small error last week, we decided to publish AS2 without realizing the vocab document had changed
#
sandro https://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/as2-vocab-cr1-cr2.html
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... it didn't have a change log, but i did a diff and it had a ton of changes, all the examples had changed
#
Loqi [James M Snell] Activity Vocabulary
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... as well as other clarifications, there is the diff i did last week (link in IRC)
#
aaronpk present+
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... since then Evan added a changelog
#
KevinMarks Present+
#
ben_thatmustbeme present+
#
cwebber2 I can look
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: can people take a quick look and see if this seems right to you?
#
csarven present+
#
cwebber2 sandro, so what's the question? is the changelog right?
timbl joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: they are only examples
#
ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: (beep beep beep)
#
cwebber2 ok I'll just type then
#
csarven I think I've heard every possible sound that one can make through w3c telcos
#
csarven That wa sa nice one fo rme
#
csarven new
#
ben_thatmustbeme takes that as a challenge :)
#
annbass present+
#
sandro present+
#
sandro PROPOSED: Confirm last week's decision to publish AS2 as a new Candidate Recommendation, now that we have a proper changelog for AS2 Vocabs http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/vocabulary/#changelog
#
Loqi [James M Snell] Activity Vocabulary
#
annbass +1
#
ben_thatmustbeme +1
#
sandro +1
#
ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> i looked over the examples, again not an expert, but looks good given a quick look through (while scribing)
#
rhiaro +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
cwebber2 +1
#
sandro RESOLVED: Confirm last week's decision to publish AS2 as a new Candidate Recommendation, now that we have a proper changelog for AS2 Vocabs http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/vocabulary/#changelog
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: any other votes, thoughts?
jasnell joined the channel
#
Loqi [James M Snell] Activity Vocabulary
#
sandro http://as2.amy.gy/reports.html
tantek joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: amy i see new implementation reports?
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i didn't put anything on the agenda
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... maybe just copied from last week
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think we are good on AS2, that should be published on thursday
#
ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: webmention
jasnell joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: in theory we should be moving from CR to REC, but it looks like its not going to happen before the deadline for this year
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: the issues that are open right now are from external commenters, and every issue on there now has a PR for it and i'm waiting to hear back from the commentor about the issue
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... it looks like tantek has given some thumbs up on all of them, but i'm assuming thats just from him and not from the original commentor
shepazu joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: some of these are from Mozilla?
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yes. They are all just clarifications, but I'd appreciate any review people want to do
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... these will be the last things to go in to the draft before going to REC
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: that sounds like a good reason not to go to REC before the break, give commenters time to review them and respond
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... it will be much harder to make any changes after this
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... does anyone want to go over any of these now?
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: wasn't there something about 1mb hard-written in to the spec
#
KevinMarks Can we talk them through and commit the PRs, and wait for commenters in that state?
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yes in the security considerations, should put limitations on fetching" "for example, 1 mb or 5 seconds"
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i would have imagined we would say that clients have to read at least the first MB
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i'm happy with the text on 86
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: if anyone is reviewing these now and we are happy with it, i'm happy to merge PRs in and then wait for commenter after the merge
#
rhiaro sandro, fixed the AS2 vocab references
#
aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/webmention/issues/76
#
aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/webmention/pull/85/files
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: this should be pretty easy, i basically added a background section at the top of the document
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... explaining how webmention was built from and on top of pingback
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: pingback never specified what to do for updates and deletes
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: correct, it actuallly could not be used for updates as it said to reject a pingback that was already registered
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: what about trackback?
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: trackback was just actually sending the comment snippet, there wasn't anything about URLs in the spec
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: whenever i explain webmention, i have to use the word trackback for them to understand it
#
ben_thatmustbeme annbass: would it be possible to add some little comment about trackback as well?
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... set the historical context
#
KevinMarks I suspect talking to people who haven't been on the web for a decade, trackback references will only confuse
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i don't know, trackback is so old and overrun with spam it doesn't seem worth mentioning
#
ben_thatmustbeme annbass: i suppose but as sandro said when he explains it he has to reference trackback
#
sandro https://movabletype.org/documentation/trackback/specification.html
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: even just bringing up trackback spec confuses me, do we want to link people to it
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... the spec talks about installing cURL, thats not a spec
#
ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> can we just say "and other linkback methods" or something?
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: maybe i can include a sentence about webmention being in this family of linkback mechanisms
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: and maybe link to wikipedia for those that don't know what linkback is?
#
sandro "Webmention provides a [[LinkBack]] mechanism. It began as a simplified version of [[PingBack]].... "
#
ben_thatmustbeme csarven: i think thats a good way as there are other methods that may be coming up
#
annbass I like that suggestion .. shows there are some other 'link back' mechanisms, with a ref, but without having to delve into any history or details
#
sandro "Webmention provides a [[LinkBack]] mechanism, somewhat akin to TrackBack. Webmention itself began as a simplified version of [[PingBack]].... "
tantek joined the channel
#
csarven I don't know if anyone actually cares about this but AFAIK, Semantic Pingback (circa 2010) predates Webmention. Whether that needs to be said somewhere is something else.
#
csarven and both derive from Pingback.. or I don't know if WM derived/simplified from SP or not.
#
KevinMarks Right, there are lots of these, so referring to the general idea is better than an attempted genealogy.
#
tantek the specific request was for Pingback since that is what is widely known and deployed (and thus folks have some understanding of its security etc characteristics in practice)
#
KevinMarks Technorati was link back as a service, Blogger has had backlinks based on Google crawl for years,
#
tantek it wasn't about a full genealogy of all experiments
#
tantek to add clarity from the commenter's perspective (Mozilla)
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i think what i want to do is just mention that webmention is a linkback and it links to the wikipedia page
#
tantek so no need to add anything beyond that
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm doing that right now
#
tantek is on spotty IRC, little to no chance of phone, already gave regrets in the telcon schedule
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: looks good
#
KevinMarks Or we end up going back to Xanadu and Memex
#
tantek no
#
sandro :-)
#
tantek the linkback abstaraction is academic
#
tantek the specific request was for pingback and/or trackback
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: since tantek opened these issues, i'll wait for tantek to go back to the original commentor
#
tantek because of practical deployment experience reasons
#
csarven Then just say Pingback!
#
tantek not for definitional ones
#
csarven No need to talk about LInkback inf act
#
tantek csarven - right, just Pingback is enough
#
tantek that's what the issue said originally
#
tantek not sure what all this bikeshedding is about
#
sandro it's done, tantek
#
tantek I confirmed that just referencing Pingback is enough, the way the pull request did when I reviewed it earlier this morning
#
tantek (pull request on the issue)
#
tantek linkback--
#
Loqi linkback has -1 karma
#
aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/webmention/issues/84
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: this is a tricky one, it sounded like he misunderstood what the section was about
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... it was specifically about the POST request
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... that was the section, but the comment, was about republishing private comment, essentially a totally different issue which we hadn't talked about before
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... instead of changing that section, I added another section about his actual concern
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... since webmention doesn't specify anything about republishing, its an note under the verification section
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... it mentions that the receiver might be republishing that
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... i added a note below that about not unintentionally changing the privacy on that
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... just trying to make sure people are aware of it, without specifying what to do about it. thats a job for the next layer up
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i'm happy with that change
#
KevinMarks That's a useful clarification.
#
ben_thatmustbeme so much for a short meeting :P
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: closing 71 since tantek opened that and he thumbs upped it
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: do we know when the publishing moritorium is over?
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we'll figure it out laster
#
rhiaro January 3, 2017: Publications resume
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: are we meeting on the 20th and/or 27th
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... i'd guess we are not meeting the 27th, we COULD meet the 20th, i'd prefer not to
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i'd be up for dropping the 27th meeting
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... that means the next meeting would be the date publishing ends
tantek joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: if you want to go and prepare a draft for the third, assuming all the commenters are happy
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: rhiaro have you gone to sleep?
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we'll try to move things along and get it published when the moritorium ends
#
KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/02/technorati-xanadu-and-other-dreams.html historic info for csarven
#
tantek sandro, did you hear back re: REC publishing? is it already too late?
#
sandro no answer, tantek
#
rhiaro sandro "2 transition, probably no meetings needed" from your w3.org address
#
sandro tantek, can you get a positive response from the commenter?
#
csarven KevinMarks: Do I have to read this? What was the inquiry?
#
tantek sandro, already preflighted that with the proposals in the issues
#
tantek also, to be clear, the Mozilla vote on the PR was to Yes to publish, with *suggested* changes, not required
#
sandro Sure, but since they're editorial improvements, it's not nice to ignore them.
#
tantek especially as these are all editorial / non-normative, I believe the changes being made reflect the intentions of the commenter
#
tantek (from having spoken with the commenter in-person last week)
#
sandro excellent, okay
#
tantek (we had a Mozilla All Hands last week)
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i've been looking up on "linkback" and it looks like the term only exists on wikipedia
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... it looks like it was created there
#
cwebber2 to linkback?
#
tantek that sounds likea violation of Wikipedia's no original research rule
#
cwebber2 https://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&q=linkback&=&=&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1
#
cwebber2 seems to be a lot of results
#
tantek nothing citable
#
ben_thatmustbeme annbass: do whatever you feel is right
#
aaronpk cwebber2, look at the results, they're not about the 4 methods
#
tantek cwebber2 - if there were, the linkback article itself would have a citation
#
KevinMarks No, you do t have to read anything, I thought you were be interested in the history of this
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i find myself using the term 'backlinking'
#
cwebber2 ah ok
#
annbass the point is to help the uninitiated reader understand
#
ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro, but backlinking is really,r eally generic though in my mind
#
cwebber2 doesn't have a horse in this race
#
cwebber2 I gotta go though
#
cwebber2 later everyone!
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: a backlink is a name for the link itself
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... that is a kind of different thing
#
tantek cwebber2 - made-up stuff on wikipedia is bad for everyone
#
ben_thatmustbeme i'm not sure i like us linking to wikipedia in the spec anyway
#
ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> i'm not sure i like us linking to wikipedia in the spec anyway
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: yeah, lets go back to the pingback version then
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i think i like that better
#
ben_thatmustbeme so there are 3 issues, 3 PRs, tantek believes they address all the issues raised
#
ben_thatmustbeme s/so/.../
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: so i will merge the PRs and leave the issues waiting for commenter so we don't lose track of them
#
ben_thatmustbeme ... i'll do that and I'll stage this
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: okay, it looks like we can probably go ahead for december 15th
#
ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> \o/
#
rhiaro ... tomorrow, for me
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: any last minute things from anyone else?
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: do people want to meet next week?
#
tantek do we need to resolve to pubilsh anything?
#
tantek (today)
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i might have some trailing things still for other work items
#
sandro no resolution needed, really, but we did conmfirm AS2 with the changelog.
#
KevinMarks “As we all know, Ted Nelson meant hypertexts to have bidirectional links. But due to a laboratory accident in Switzerland, we ended up with this lame thing.”
#
sandro webmention REC should go out this week
#
sandro "That was NO accident"
#
tantek wow we'll actually deliver at least one charter deliverable within our original charter period!
#
annbass gotta go ..
#
annbass thanks Sandro
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: okay, tentatively there is a meeting for next week, might get cancelled if we end up with nothing on the agenda
#
sandro meeting as planned next week, unless nothing turns up for the agenda
#
ben_thatmustbeme Chair: Sandro
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: and we said no meeting on the 27th
#
sandro no meeting on Dec 27th.
#
tantek present+
#
tantek (just on IRC, sporadically :P)
#
ben_thatmustbeme regrets+ evan
#
KevinMarks You were present in github
#
sandro ADJOURNED
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: talk to you all either in 1 week or 3, and have a happy december
#
tantek sandro++ thanks for chairing!
#
Loqi sandro has 32 karma in this channel (37 overall)
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme++ thanks for minuting!
#
Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 60 karma in this channel (181 overall)
#
ben_thatmustbeme sandro: don't all say bye at once everyone
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: bye
#
sandro thank for scribing ben_thatmustbeme !
#
tantek so maybe meeting next week, but definitely canceled the 27th?
#
aaronpk yes
#
tantek goes to edit the home page
#
ben_thatmustbeme trackbot end meeting
#
Zakim As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, KevinMarks, ben_thatmustbeme, csarven, annbass, sandro, tantek
#
trackbot is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot Zakim, list attendees
#
trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/13-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent I see no action items
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, bye
#
Zakim leaving. As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, KevinMarks, ben_thatmustbeme, csarven, annbass, sandro, tantek
#
tantek great work everyone
#
ben_thatmustbeme i'll have the minutes up in about 10 minutes
#
sandro tantek, next time you run into hildjj, please convey my appreciation for his cbor implementation, which I'm loving this week.
#
csarven Happy Festivus everyone.
#
tantek sandro - will do!
#
tantek whoa is it Festivus already?
#
csarven I'm getting ahead of myself.
#
tantek Loqi, when is Festivus?
#
tantek was there any update on the charter extension request?
#
csarven Is it 'reuseability' or 'reusability'? 'reusability' seems to be more of a thing, but I can't tell if the users of 'reuseability' made mistake or just en-UK thing or something else.
#
rhiaro oops I didn't present+ - ben_thatmustbeme can you add me to the attendees?
#
csarven en-GB
#
sandro -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2016OctDec/0057.html Social Web Working Group Charter Extended
#
sandro (tantek) I guess I better update the charter
#
tantek woot!
#
Loqi woot
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i added you and cwebber2 to the precent:
#
ben_thatmustbeme https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-12-13-minutes
#
ben_thatmustbeme just posted
#
aaronpk is re-reading the whole spec to look for typos
#
sandro charter updated https://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
#
ben_thatmustbeme excellent
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek notes we didn't approve last week's minutes
#
tantek sandro, does the charter not get updated with the changes in chairing and team contacts?
#
tantek just curious
#
tantek (at least listing emeritus or "until yyyy-mm-dd" for past chair / contact)
tantek_ joined the channel
#
sandro tantek, it can be, it just seems less important. But yeah.
#
sandro aaronpk, status of the draft?
#
aaronpk i think it's ready
#
aaronpk should i keep the "Security and Privacy Review" section in? https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#security-and-privacy-review
#
Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
#
sandro aaronpk, I'm being asked what the change since PR are, so I was looking for the appropriate changelog
#
aaronpk ah it's in the draft
#
sandro yeah, I think keep that.
#
sandro I guess
#
sandro url?
#
aaronpk https://webmention.net/draft/publish/rec/
#
Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
#
sandro were there any comments during PR other than the ones we talked about today?
#
aaronpk not that I am aware of. no other ones ended up on github.
#
sandro okay, thanks.
#
tantek yes keep the security & privacy review!
#
tantek pretty sure the only comments made in the PR review all got reflected in github
#
ben_thatmustbeme should it be renamed to "security and privacy considerations" ?
#
ben_thatmustbeme or does that matter?
#
tantek I think it's best to avoid unnecessary changes (i.e. not as a result of comments on the review)
#
tantek but for current WDs / CRs, it would be a good idea to use "considerations" like that
jasnell, tantek and shepazu joined the channel