#social

2015-10-06

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Loqi
Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85865&oldid=85847
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Loqi
Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-06]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85866&oldid=85854
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Loqi
Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-06]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85867&oldid=85866
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elf-pavlik
!tell harry will you stay in Paris one of next days, I plan to stay around here for couple more days and we could meet up :) also http://www.xwiki.org team would like to discuss possibilities for interop
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85869&oldid=85861
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Loqi
Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85871&oldid=85869
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Loqi
Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85872&oldid=85871
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro: if you can, please let me know ASAP if you and sandro can make WebEx calling out to me, for now based on email reply from Arnaud it doesn't sound promissing :(
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Arnaud
elf, can't you use something like skype to call in?
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elf-pavlik
Arnaud: friend made an account (with some calling credits) available for me but now it doesn't have enough left to make another call, I guess I may end up IRC only for now
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Arnaud
I guess it's hard to function in this world without any money :)
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elf-pavlik
just in thu current *state* of this world, future looks much more promissing since many people work on this issue :)
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elf-pavlik
s/thu/the/
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rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: does Hangouts not work for you?
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rhiaro_
I can call us numbers free from mine
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro_, I didn't know that! Will give it a try and if it works we can document it on wiki :)
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elf-pavlik
looks like it should work :) http://thenextweb.com/google/2014/09/10/google-hangouts-gets-free-voice-calls-north-america-numbers-really-low-international-rates/
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aaronpk
hangouts is my primary phone number
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aaronpk
(used to be google voice)
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aaronpk
I don't pay for a phone line or phone number right now
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elf-pavlik
using Google Hangout to call +1 WebEx number seems to work fine, it didn't ask me for 'socl' code yet
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KevinMarks_
you don't use the socl code, you use the other number that looks like a phone number
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aaronpk
the code isn't socl
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elf-pavlik
ok, cool! i guess no one else have joined yet
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-social-irc
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 06 October 2015
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elf-pavlik
hears someone ...
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Arnaud
present+ Arnaud
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csarven
present+ csarven
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rhiaro_
present+ rhiaro
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tantek
on IRC only for now
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elf-pavlik
https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExBestPractices#Via_a_Plain_Old_Telephone says:
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elf-pavlik
"The only dial-in number is the US number: +1.617.324.0000"
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aaronpk
present+ aaronpk
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Shane_
present+ shanehudson
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Arnaud
present+ sandro
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Arnaud
present+ elf-pavlik
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elf-pavlik
thanks Arnaud
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KevinMarks_
present+ kevinmarks
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cwebber2
hi
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cwebber2
uhoh
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cwebber2
my phone is dead
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cwebber2
I'm text only till it has enough juice to turn on
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KevinMarks_
all phoens are dead, now we have web calling ;)
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tantek
cwebber2 what a coincidence, mine is refusing to connect to wifi
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cwebber2
tantek: time for conspiracy theories!
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sandro
I'd say we should just meet F2F, but at the F2F we'll probably spend all our time trying to get the speakerphone to work right.
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elf-pavlik
https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExBestPractices#Google_Hangouts
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 166 karma
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tantek
sandro lol
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tantek
sandro that's why we'll use talky
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hhalpin
waves
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hhalpin
dialing in
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExBestPractices#Google_Hangouts ?
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tantek
may have to request postponing his agenda items to the 2nd half of the meeting in order to switch locations to someplace with a landline
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: I don't use google hangouts because I don't want to run the proprietary plugin
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2++
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wilkie
present+ wilkie
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 45 karma
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tantek
cwebber2 indeed
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eprodrom
present+ eprodrom
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Arnaud
zakim, who's here?
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Zakim
Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom
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Zakim
On IRC I see hhalpin, eprodrom, csarven, Zakim, RRSAgent, Shane_, tantek, bblfish, jasnell_, the_frey, elf-pavlik, KevinMarks_, shepazu, Arnaud, wilkie, tommorris_, Loqi, bret,
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Zakim
... ben_thatmustbeme, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, rhiaro_, cwebber2, wavis, dwhly, pdurbin, oshepherd, rhiaro, slvrbckt, aaronpk, tsyesika, raucao, sandro, trackbot,
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Zakim
... wseltzer
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jasnell_
present+ jasnell
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rhiaro_
can scribe
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cwebber2
ok trying to dial in, I have some things to update on when it comes to the social api conversation, but may be via text
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rhiaro_
scribenick rhiaro_
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rhiaro_
scribenick: rhiaro_
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rhiaro_
TOPIC: Approval of minutes from last week
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Arnaud
Approval of Minutes of 2015-09-29 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-29-minutes
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ben_thatmustbeme
present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: any concerns or objections?
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tantek
yeah, giving up on captive portal support on iOS9 - totally broken. DO NOT UPGRADE to iOS9 if you have an iOS device - it's wifi support is fundamentally broken.
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tantek
+1 on minutes
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cwebber2
+1
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aaronpk
had a moment of panic that I forgot to post those last week
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Arnaud
RESOLVED: Approval of Minutes of 2015-09-29 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-29-minutes
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eprodrom
+1
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rhiaro_
... hearing no objections, resolved approval of minutes
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tantek
Arnaud, if possible, please postpone my agenda items to second half of call - am going to switch locations to get on a landline.
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rhiaro_
... We have changed our plans for next f2f, initially scheduled for TPAC but it is now in SF beginning of december
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tantek
thank you
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eprodrom
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01
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rhiaro_
... There is a wiki page for this. Despite announcing this last week not many people have responded
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rhiaro_
... Please indicate on wiki if you plan to participate
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rhiaro_
... This will help with logistics
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rhiaro_
... The expectation is that tantek will host at Mozilla office in SF
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rhiaro_
... I understand there is a room for 12 people
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rhiaro_
... It's important to know if we will fit in there
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rhiaro_
... or if other plans need to be made
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rhiaro_
... so please do respond
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rhiaro_
... If you do'nt know for sure, say that on the wiki page
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rhiaro_
... Information is better than silence
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rhiaro_
... We should talk about WebEx. There have been issues, people have been having trouble calling in
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... Evan mentioned that webex has a whole bunch of local numbers that peopel should be able to use in other parts of the world
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elf-pavlik
that sounds incorect https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ#Can_we_use_international_phone_numbers_for_WebEx.3F
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rhiaro_
... We are going to try to get you the link with the call in number
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rhiaro_
... elf has managed to join today using Hangouts. There are options, we just need to document them
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elf-pavlik
"The only call-in number supported by the MIT/WebEx instance is the one with the +1 country code: +1.617.324.0000"
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rhiaro_
... Anything else anyone wants to add to this?
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cwebber2
present+
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cwebber2
now on call
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rhiaro_
... We'll gather all the information and update the wiki page and copy it into future agendas so it's readily available
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik, it looks like the webex client can call you at any international number once you connect via the web client
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rhiaro_
TOPIC: AS 2.0
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk no one has host code to do that
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: First one, update on publication
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rhiaro_
... We agreed to publish spec with a new license, unfotunately this has been a pain for james, the tooling has not been updated completely yet
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rhiaro_
... We have been working to get the publication tool updated to accommodate the new license. It's a chain of things, things keep breaking
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rhiaro_
... We're still working on it, it's not published yet, even though the document itself is read
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rhiaro_
jasnell: The core draft is published, I'm working on the vocabulary draft right now
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rhiaro_
... Hopefully that goes in the next minutes
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Loqi
Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-06]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85874&oldid=85867
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Loqi
Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85876&oldid=85875
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Loqi
Shudson made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85875&oldid=85872
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: Link to the published one?
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tsyesika
I'm finding the webex client isn't working for me either FWIW
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Arnaud
http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/
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Arnaud
http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-core-20151006/
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rhiaro_
jasnell: I'm working on the vocabulary one now, I'm getting some weird errors, trying to figure out now
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik no it totally calls out: http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/webex-dialout-20151006-101033.png
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: I can confirm the core spec has been published, just put a link ^
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rhiaro_
... That's good news. Good chance we'll get the rest out.
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rhiaro_
... Any questions or comments?
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk I thought no one has host code ... who called you?
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: Are we going to ahve any further problems, or will we do more monthly drafts as expected?
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik once you enter the meeting it has a button to call you. no host code needed
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rhiaro_
jasnell: assuming we get the process down it should be fine. The tools have been getting in the way. Once we've got through it once, then it should be much more regular
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: Great!
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: In fact, we're pioneering for everybody
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rhiaro_
... Once the tools are fixed, every other group can use that
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eprodrom
Great
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elf-pavlik
oh, true! in my case i need someone else to call me since i can't run webex client
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rhiaro_
... We should talk about what's next for the specification
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elf-pavlik
missed /me
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rhiaro_
... Pushing towards CR
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rhiaro_
... There has been discussion and progress with text, but we require more than just a text document
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rhiaro_
... We need test suites and implementation plans
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rhiaro_
... People committing to implement the spec
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rhiaro_
... There is an exit criteria for CR, we invite the world to implement and gather implementation reports, usually using the test suite
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rhiaro_
... People can generate reports using the test suites against their implementation, send reports back, someone cosolidates the reports and we use this to justify that the spec can got to proposed rec
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... So the two aspects here that are important are the test suite and the plans to implement
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rhiaro_
... Everybody knows we have had an effort made by IBM to start a test suite, but I was hoping there would be peopel who can help out and take it to the next step. We haven't seen that happen. It's unclear at this point who is planning to implement it
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... We have been having discussion, we are starting to be uncomfortable with the situation
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eprodrom
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Proposed_agenda_items
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: I'd like to discuss the timeframe that we're in right now. We've been discussing among chairs, but I put it on the proposed agenda items for f2f, that we'll be discussing the progress of AS2.0 and what our way forward is
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rhiaro_
... We'll need to make a decision if we've had enough progress with that by the f2f to justify going to CR
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rhiaro_
... If we can't justify it, we need to discuss alternatives
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rhiaro_
... Do we continue to work on it after the f2f, if ther'es progress we can postpone and make the decision later.
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cwebber2
q+
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... Another is to decide not to publish AS2.0 as a CR. That would mean we could either not publish it at all, or we could publish it as a Note
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rhiaro_
... Means that it's kind of a suggestion/idea/best practice, but hasn't been throught he rigorous process a CR goes through
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rhiaro_
... I think that the things we're looking for by f2f are fluid, not a checklist:
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rhiaro_
... First is implementations
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rhiaro_
... We have two implementations, both by jasnell, JS and Java implementations
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rhiaro_
... Both open source implementations, but we need to have a few implemenations in order to go to CR
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rhiaro_
... The second thing is expressions of intent to implement
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rhiaro_
... Companies or existing projects that say yes we've reviewed the document and we intend to implement this
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rhiaro_
... Ideally it will be folks who have already AS1.0, they're the most likely to got o AS2.0
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rhiaro_
... And then the last thing that we need is a test suite
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rhiaro_
... This would ideally be something we could let implementors use on their own, that they could use to publish their implementation report
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rhiaro_
... Things to let peopel go forward
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jasnell
Vocabulary spec is published now as well... http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/
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rhiaro_
... We do have the test tool, the validator for producers
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elf-pavlik
jasnell++
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rhiaro_
... IBM did that
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Loqi
jasnell has 30 karma
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rhiaro_
... We need to define what the steps are with consumers
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rhiaro_
... How do we validate a consumer of activitystreams?]
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rhiaro_
... THat said, I think we have a lot to do
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rhiaro_
... There are some philosophical differences
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rhiaro_
... Some are of the opinion we are documenting the state of the industry. If we get to the f2f and there haven't been changes outside our group, our job is to represent that external reality and make our decision based on that
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rhiaro_
... There are others who feel that as a WG we can be pushing this forward and it seems that we have a few clear paths to go forward
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rhiaro_
... I think the test suite is something we can bring to the table
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rhiaro_
... Those who are planning to implement, free open source implenenations, will definitely move us forward
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rhiaro_
... And outreach to existing implemenations
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rhiaro_
... We have 2 months to go forward. For those interested in seeing it get to CR, we have work to do
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rhiaro_
... THis is my call to action to get us starting to do this work
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: What we're tryign to tell everybody is that we are concerned we don't see much activity on those axis. We need to look at this seroiusly and come to the f2f with expression of support or not
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... So we know if we are moving forward or not, or what the alternatives are
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eprodrom
?
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rhiaro_
cwebber: I was working on an AS2.0 representation library, and having worked on it it made me think that the most technical aspect of it is the optional requirement of JSON-LD. Otherwise mostly it's just a serialisation in JSON
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rhiaro_
... So that really makes me wonder what a test suite would look like
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rhiaro_
... We've discussed this before, nobody gave a clear answer
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elf-pavlik
q+ to ask cwebber2 if he used AS 2.0 extensibility
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... There's not much to test unless you actually do something with it
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... unless you submit it to some API or something
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Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask cwebber2 if he used AS 2.0 extensibility
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... otherwise i'ts just json objects structured in a specific way. What is there to actually test?
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rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: Question for chris: I wonder if you use some accessibility? You just use provided context, or you use other terms not in AS2 vocab?
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elf-pavlik
http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#extensibility
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rhiaro_
cwebber: I'm not interested in talking about my own implementation for this part of the call. But I ended up hitting the point where I wanted to implement types, and if we did have the option to extend with JSON-LD I needed to write a JSON-LD expander, so I did
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 46 karma
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rhiaro_
... Is extension the thign that we're testing? What are we writing the test suit efor?
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: This is a valid question
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eprodrom
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Activity_Streams_test_suite
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: I want to answer that. I'm not sure if we want to go into that in depth in thsi call. Maybe we could start developing a wiki page here ^
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hhalpin
Apologies guys, was getting the deal re WebEx from Wendy and W3C Management - have a brief update. TL;DR If group has consensus, moving to Mumble is OK if there is group consensus
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rhiaro_
... for what we want
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rhiaro_
... Two sides to testing, one is to see if producers are producing valid output
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elf-pavlik
hhalpin++
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Loqi
hhalpin has 7 karma
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rhiaro_
... THe second is to make sure consumers are 'understanding' what the input is
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rhiaro_
... I've been trying to look into some of the other test suites for other document formats
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rhiaro_
... I'd like to see us produce something ideally.. soem sort of test driver that produces correct output
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rhiaro_
... So we can test consumers. Somtehing like a commandline test driver so you can fire it at a library and let it parse a document and produce certain output
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cwebber2
q+
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
possibly relevant: https://www.w3.org/community/rdf-tests/
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hhalpin
agenda?
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Zakim
sees nothing on the agenda
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rhiaro_
... So for example, ask what's the type of this activity, and it should emit the correct type
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hhalpin
agenda+ WebEx update
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Zakim
notes agendum 1 added
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rhiaro_
... What is the object of this activity, should emit the correct object. I think that might be ag ood way to do this test suite.
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rhiaro_
... However we should do this on the wiki
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cwebber2
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: james, can you tell peopel what the validator JP developed, what kind of tests does it do?
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rhiaro_
jasnell: THe intent of the tests was basic validation fo the syntax
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rhiaro_
... Is it valid JSON? Is it valid JSON-LD? Are the values of the activitystreams valid?
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rhiaro_
... eg. are dates correct. Are the values expected.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm sure the validator will probably need to be updated as things have changed since then
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rhiaro_
... Really just a format validator as opposed to a test suite
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: That's what I expected
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rhiaro_
jasnell: If all we have is the data format, that's all we can test, is if it's valid
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams-testing
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: Except if there are constraints beyond the syntax that we want to test. But I don't think we have many of those.
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cwebber2
my phone just dropped :\
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cwebber2
stupid phone
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Arnaud
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
jasnell: Evan's point about giving it those scenarios and test if they're valid, eg. Sally uploaded a photo, there are only ac ertain number of ways that can be encoded, we can test if that works properly
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: Anything else? Otherwise evan's suggestion is a good one. I inviet everyone who has an interest in this to follow on with a discussion [on the wiki]
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rhiaro_
Arnaud: elf-pavlik, I believe you added this, links broken
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elf-pavlik
i didn't add it! i just fixed links...
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rhiaro_
... If there is a problem with the links, we don't need to use call time to discuss this
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cwebber2
eprodrom: thanks for that reply
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elf-pavlik
i didn't add it to agenda! i just fixed links after seeing it
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rhiaro_
... Vocabulary
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rhiaro_
... elf-pavlik?
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Loqi
Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Activity Streams test suite]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85877&oldid=0
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: The point I added about relevance to as2.0 vocabulary to social api, I would like to clarify if there's a strict requirement to use vocabulary in social api and federation, or if there will be another vocabulary
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rhiaro_
... I think we may have to wait to finalise the vocabularly until we know what we will use in the social api and federation
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rhiaro_
... I would like clarity on the approach. Separate vocabulary for api and federation, or we want to make sure to include everything in AS2.0 vocabulary?
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
# tantek joined the channel
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: I think this is a concern that we don't even have consensus that we're going to use JSON in our social api, much less that we're going to use AS2.0 or JSON-LD. I don't think this makes any sense. I think if we're going to use AS2.0 we need to just make it go forward rather than holding off
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rhiaro_
... I think of the spec that we have, by far the one we have farthest along is AS2.0
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rhiaro_
... I don't want to wait for social API to get AS2.0 out
#
tantek
present+ tantek
#
hhalpin
+1 eprodrom
#
jasnell
+1 to what evan said
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: Any other reactions?
#
cwebber2
+1 eprodrom
#
tantek
I'm trying to read the IRC scrollback
#
hhalpin
In particular, new vocabularies can be sent to an IG to be developed as needed.
#
Shane_
+1
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: We were just talking about the challenges we are having with moving AS2.0 forward, if we tie it to something even less defined that makes it even harder
#
rhiaro_
sandro: Is the question, are we committing the API to using AS2.0, or is it okay to design the API in such a way that it can use something other than AS2.0?
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
tantek
great question sandro
#
KevinMarks_
tantek - this is re https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-06#AS_2.0_Vocabulary_relevance_for_terms_required_for_Social_API_and_Federation
#
tantek
I agree with sandro
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... Iw ould be uncomfortable with saying the API has to use *only* activitystreams
#
tantek
I think AS2 compat is important, but not requiring AS2
#
rhiaro_
... Okay to accept activitystreams, but not *only*
#
tantek
assuming we're moving forward with AS2
#
ben_thatmustbeme
sandro, i think the original question was only the vocabulary match, not that the API use AS2
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: sandro are you comfortable with AS2?
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: possibility of removing API and Federation related terms from AS2.0 Vocabulary
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
sandro: Are implementations required to accept AS2.0, which I could live with, or required to *only* accept AS2, which I could not live with
#
rhiaro_
hhaplin: Not *only*. Reasonable case to say it should accept at least AS2, but could also accept other things
#
rhiaro_
... AS2 in addition to other things, like pure RDF or microformats
#
elf-pavlik
hhalpin microformats what? HTML ?
#
rhiaro_
sandro: If it turns out that AS2 doesn't go to rec, we can't say you MUST accept AS2
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: I would be okay with that
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: Of the 3 candidates we put together, only of them uses AS2
#
hhalpin
Just to ask, "Would anyone be uncomfortable to be accepting AS2? *with other syntaxes being possible to accept?"
#
rhiaro_
... I agree with harry that it feels that the charter is we have the social data syntax, and an api that uses that syntax. If we went with an api that does not use that syntax, it would be pretty remarkable, we would have to justify it
#
tantek
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, tantek on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... I don't think that's a settled decision in this WG
#
rhiaro_
... If we do not take AS2 to CR then we need to look at the purpose of this group and if we have a mandate to go forward with API and federation protocols that do not use an existing syntax
#
hhalpin
I would say it should accept AS2 (assuming it is a Rec) and can accept other syntax choices, with the other two being pure unadulterated RDF and another being microformats
#
elf-pavlik
q-
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... It's not 100% required, it's in not in requirements or user stories, but is strongly suggested yb going to CR with AS2
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... Not making it exclusive, we want extensibility, but making a strong part of what the API is would be a good architectural decision
#
Arnaud
ack tantek
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
tantek: Certainly AS2 is the most mature of all the different technologies and charter areas that we've been pursuing. Like evan, I'm conerned that if we're not going to make progress with AS2 then we need to take a hard look at the purpose of this group
#
rhiaro_
... On the other hand, regarding API candidates, one of the strong candidates which is micropub (strong on the basis of numerous deployed implementations interoperating clients and servers) does not reuqire AS2
#
rhiaro_
... I think there is potential for compatibility with AS2
#
rhiaro_
... One of the reasons I followed up with post-type-discovery is to explore areas for compatibility
#
rhiaro_
... I'm not concerned with being bound to AS2. I'd rather have a working proven API than one that is bound to previous decisions
#
rhiaro_
... But I"d like to see how we can make all these peices work together
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: It seems lik there is agreement that we shouldn't tie the two together
#
rhiaro_
... It's still unclear what the protocol/API is going to be
#
rhiaro_
... Best if it could leverage AS2 somehow, to which degree is less to be defined
#
cwebber2
q+
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... I think it would help to know more about what is oging on with social api before we go deeper into this
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
I'm queued *for* the social API :)
#
rhiaro_
... We have several people working on the social api
#
Arnaud
ack cwebber
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... If the compromise really worked, maybe all these questions would be answered
#
rhiaro_
cwebber: I think there are several things I'd like to update on that front
#
rhiaro_
... One is about actual implementation
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: I don't want to move off this topic... elf's original proposal is that we hold off on publishing vocabulary until api and federation are better defined
#
elf-pavlik
if you would like to speak about API, i can scribe for a bit!
#
rhiaro_
... I'd like to take that to proposal
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
I don't understand elf's proposal?
#
rhiaro_
... can we formalise this?
#
tantek
are we stuck on updating AS WD?
#
elf-pavlik
rhiaro if you would like to speak about API, i can scribe for a bit!
#
rhiaro_
tantek: what are we talking about not publishing?
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: cwebber has everything I want to say, I think :)
#
elf-pavlik
ok
#
hhalpin
PROPOSAL: ActivityVocabulary not published until API and Federation are mature?
#
hhalpin
not sure if I captured it right
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: The question is, if the api is going to align with AS2, do we hold off on publishing AS2 vocab until they're better defined?
#
hhalpin
The counter proposal would be
#
rhiaro_
tantek: we have a new draft published right? So this is about the next draft?
#
cwebber2
-1 on not publishing AS 2.0 until the other things are out
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: THe plan moving forward
#
hhalpin
PROPOSAL: Publish ActivityVocabulary and AS2.0 independently of any progress on Social API and Federation.
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... Are we planning to publish vocab on it's own independant of status of API work, or want to work for API to solidify to publish
#
hhalpin
q+ cwebber
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: See harry's proposal ^
#
cwebber2
+1 to publishing regardless
#
tantek
keep publishing AS WDs - I really don't understand the question
#
cwebber2
but
#
rhiaro_
... That's the question I'd like to address
#
Arnaud
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... This has come up beofre, I'd like to come a decision on it
#
elf-pavlik
-1 if we put API and Federated related terms in AS2.0 Vocabulary
#
rhiaro_
hhaplin: Alternate proposal is to wait until we get API and federation more solid
#
cwebber2
(+1 to understanding better about the format stuff, however this is a separate topic)
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: one proposal at a time
#
rhiaro_
hhaplin: Which do we prefer, negative or positive?
#
cwebber2
strongly prefer publishing the second one
#
eprodrom
+1
#
cwebber2
+1
#
jasnell
+1 to hhalpin's
#
hhalpin
PROPOSAL: Publish ActivityVocabulary and AS2.0 independently of any progress on Social API and Federation.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
+1 to not linking publishing AS2 to progress of vocabulary
#
tantek
PROPOSAL: keep publishing AS WDs (at least) once a month as previously agreed in the WG!
#
csarven
+1
#
hhalpin
+1
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: W're on the second: to publish without waiting
#
rhiaro_
+1
#
elf-pavlik
-1 if we put API and Federated related terms in AS2.0 Vocabulary
#
wilkie
+1
#
cwebber2
it would be insane to throw out all that work
#
ben_thatmustbeme
s/vocabulary/other parts/
#
rhiaro_
tantek: we're still taking working draft here?
#
cwebber2
in. sane.
#
tsyesika
+1
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: The plan moving forward
#
rhiaro_
... Not talking about publishing anything right now, the plan moving forward
#
cwebber2
I do think we should figure out if AS is a *requirement* for the API
#
cwebber2
but
#
tantek
+1 - this is the existing plan AFAIK!
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: a -1 from elf
#
cwebber2
that doesn't stop us from doing activitystreams
#
jasnell
the question is about whether or not AS 2.0 can move forward as a Note or CR independently of the API being done
#
rhiaro_
... Can you expand elf-pavlik?
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: Some of the terms are related to API and federation. Terms like I've listed on agenda page, like paging and audience targeting
#
jasnell
given that we don't even have an API Editor's Draft, it would be insane to tie AS 2.0 progress to API progress.
#
rhiaro_
... I would like to clarify that if some of those terms are part of API or federation, if we want to publish AS2 we should remove terms that are not specific to modelling data
#
tantek
q+ re: hypothetical federation concerns
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
if the API needs additional terms, then it can define those as extensions to AS 2.0
#
cwebber2
okay, we can iterate on that as we get closer to understanding that
#
cwebber2
but really
#
rhiaro_
... If we want to publish it, I would make an issue about removing terms that are API specific
#
Arnaud
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to discuss hypothetical federation concerns
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Sorry about interrupting cwebber2
#
jasnell
is silently weeping
#
hhalpin
I'm ok with adding vocabs as extensions later when we get federation and API more mature, but not holding up AS2
#
rhiaro_
tantek: I think that without a concrete federation proposal that has something that's workable/working, this discussion doesn't make any sense
#
rhiaro_
... It's just stop-energy against AS2, I object to that
#
rhiaro_
... elf, I think this is premature
#
rhiaro_
... To object to update to AS2 is counterproductive
#
rhiaro_
... If you really believe that federation requires that kind of vocabulary then go work on a federation proposal that uses that vocabularly
#
elf-pavlik
I don't object updates but going to CR with API and Federation terms
#
rhiaro_
... It's a waste of time to say stop this other work because it *might* use this vocabulary
#
elf-pavlik
thank you Arnaud
#
cwebber2
okay, there's a valid kind of point toward's elf's point, I'll comment a bit towards that
#
cwebber2
but
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: I don't think he's saying 'stop', just that we should synchronise work before CR
#
cwebber2
I think it mustn't stop AS2
#
rhiaro_
tantek: If he believes in that vocabulary requirement he should produce a draft that demonstrates that
#
rhiaro_
... Saying deliverable might use it so lets wait to sync is unreasonable
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: we're very close to consensus, but not going to call it resolved to respect elf's objection
#
rhiaro_
... if we get to a point where we get to CR, we might have t move forward to overrule elf's objection, as most of group is in favour
#
rhiaro_
... Before we run out of time, move to social api
#
Arnaud
ack cwebber
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
cwebber: I want to udpate on a couple of things
#
ben_thatmustbeme
didn't know you were in boston cwebber
#
rhiaro_
... The whole conversation about AS2.0 and whether that's linked to standard stuff.. when I was in Boston over the weekend I talked to people in MediaGoblin community and others in this group, and had a lot of thoughts
#
tsyesika
I'd also like to see discussed the Webex/mumble issue hhalpin added to the agenda, I am only participating via text as I had WebEx issues
#
rhiaro_
... I think elf is right, we do need to figure out if AS2.0 is linked, but that's a whole call in itself, so lets not do that this week
#
rhiaro_
... But the other side, int erms of implementation, tsyesika is close to landing a massive rearchitecting of MediaGoblin so we can support federation
#
elf-pavlik
tsyesika++
#
Loqi
tsyesika has 14 karma
#
rhiaro_
... THis has been holding this back, it's nearing actually working. This was all set up from the original plan of working towards pump API server to server stuff happening
#
eprodrom
tsyesika++ !
#
rhiaro_
... Confident in this happening by the end of the year
#
Loqi
tsyesika has 15 karma
#
rhiaro_
... Then we can move to AS2.0, which is then really not far way from ActivityPump
#
rhiaro_
... That work is starting to get to the point where we're going to see some real results
#
rhiaro_
... There's been some conversations in pump.io community about management, and ActivityPump version
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
I'll have to update my mediagoblin instance and play :)
#
rhiaro_
... I've been working on implementaiton this summer, and got caught up yak-shaving, implementing JSON-LD
#
rhiaro_
... Got a lot of interesting audience feedback at FSF talk this weekend
#
rhiaro_
... Which I will email by the end of today
#
rhiaro_
... I also talked to the person from OwnCloud (self hosted filesharing, calendaring, etc) which has a huge userbase
#
rhiaro_
... Head of OwnCLoud wants to join this group
#
rhiaro_
... It would be really big if we got federation working and agreed on a standard
#
eprodrom
That's great news!
#
rhiaro_
... He's going to go through the process of joining the group, I endorse him
#
hhalpin
Great news re MediaGobliN!
#
rhiaro_
... I did talk to others in the group, and will send an email
#
sandro
cwebber2, do you know if the owncloud person was talking about joining as a W3C member or an IE?
#
elf-pavlik
cwebber2++
#
wilkie
so great
#
rhiaro_
... So just wanted to update about MediaGoblin progress
#
tantek
cwebber2++
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 47 karma
#
Shane_
That sounds great :)
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 48 karma
#
hhalpin
Definitely would support ownCloud joining
#
tsyesika
cwebber2++
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 49 karma
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: You've been talking about federation API as if it's different from client API
#
rhiaro_
... People have argued in the past that the distinction is meaningless
#
rhiaro_
... You believe they're two different things?
#
rhiaro_
cwebber: For MEdiaGoblin's implementation they have to be different. As an example implementation, there are two different steps
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
I'm already on!
#
Arnaud
yes, you are, and I know it :)
#
rhiaro_
... It's true that there is a distinction between client-server and server-server, as we had to re-engineer stuff to do server-server
#
rhiaro_
... However it's false becasue the mechanism of server-server and client-server look basically the same
#
hhalpin
This has become a rather dialectical :)
#
rhiaro_
... They're so linked
#
hhalpin
Nonetheless, this is very interesting news to get from an implementer that supports the case for keeping one API.
#
rhiaro_
... I think it would be dumb to seperate into two specs; it reads much more coherantly when you describe how these things work together
#
rhiaro_
... Two sections, not two documents
#
hhalpin
And one deliverable is *optional* BTW
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: what I think is important - the fact that there are two deliverables on the charter does not meaen we need two different documents
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... Not a 1-1 mapping between deliverables and documents
#
tsyesika
+1 for NOT splitting it into two documents
#
hhalpin
I.e. federation was viewed as optional on purpose.
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: Two questions - you're implementing pump.io API and federation?
#
rhiaro_
cwebber: Correct for now
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: Since we don't yet have social api/federation specified, just wanted to clarifiy.
#
tantek
Arnaud, I'm hoping we at least have a few minutes to discuss (accept?) https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-06#Tracking_of_Actions_and_Issues Post Type Discovery for issue 4 and action 35 (follow-up from last week)
#
tsyesika
Arnaud: I'm also hoping we can discuss WebEx issues
#
rhiaro_
... Second question, for implementation, would be useful to have python library that can consume and produce AS2.0. Is that something that's part of these next steps for MediaGoblin, and something youc ould share?
#
tsyesika
Arnaud: I and others have struggled joining over the last few months due to the changes
#
rhiaro_
cwebber: I think that's possible. Need to talk to tsyesika. I'm optimistic. Was thinking when you said earlier that we do a commandline test suite, it might not be too hard to write that as a little python application. Something like that might end up happening.
#
tantek
Arnaud - can we assign the WebEx issues to the chairs to handle offline?
#
rhiaro_
... Let us talk about it and discuss next week
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: Defer to later
#
rhiaro_
... Fight for the last few minutes as to waht we should talk about
#
hhalpin
q+ calling-in
#
Zakim
sees calling-in on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees calling-in, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... On WebEx, there is additional information we can add. We will take this offline. Look ofr information, we are aware there are challenges
#
Arnaud
queue=
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: I was just discussing this with Wendy Seltzer. Other groups have had this issue. No other group has resolved it successfully. But as long as the group has consensus on what software and everyone can use it, it is okay to swtich off webex
#
cwebber2
sandro: I sent him an email about the process of Invited Expert
#
rhiaro_
... So if we want to swtich to Mumble, that's fine by w3c
#
jasnell
dropping. have another call
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: We should try and make this work, not that I"m opposed to soemthing else, but we have addtional information we can try first
#
cwebber2
sandro: if he should do something else, please let me know
#
cwebber2
sandro: I'll send him an email and update him
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: tantek, what do you want to update us on?
#
tantek
Post Type Discovery https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery
#
rhiaro_
tantek: I provided editors draft for review last week. Proposal is to accept post-type-discovery as an editors draft for WG
#
rhiaro_
... You were given a week to review that, so that's the proposal
#
rhiaro_
... If it's accepted, I'll move to w3c wiki and move to github for issues and discussion
#
tantek
PROPOSAL accept https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery as W3C editor's draft and use w3c wiki and github
#
rhiaro_
Proposal: Accept post-type-discovery as an Editors draft for this WG
#
aaronpk
there was quite a bit of feedback after the call last week, changes have been incorporated
#
rhiaro_
tantek: After the call last time people asked for discussion/participation, spec has been updated since then based on feedback
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: Any objections?
#
aaronpk
+1 to the proposal
#
eprodrom
-1
#
csarven
Code bloat?
#
Shane_
I've not read it fully yet but it definitely sounds useful to me
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: evan?
#
hhalpin
+1 but would be good to read it
#
KevinMarks_
+1
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: What would be our goal for using this?
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: Next week we need to give this fair amount of time to get to the bottom of this
#
elf-pavlik
-1 needs more discussion
#
rhiaro_
... Sorry tantek, we're not going to resolve this now
#
rhiaro_
... Close the call on this
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro++
#
cwebber2
rhiaro++
#
rhiaro_
... Thanks everyone!
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 167 karma
#
elf-pavlik
rhiaro++
#
wilkie
this makes me feel like an explicit type field is necessary haha
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 167 karma
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 168 karma
#
tsyesika
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 169 karma
#
Arnaud
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
ben_thatmustbeme
lol, loqi doesn't have atomic increases to karma
#
tsyesika
rhiaro_: thanks for scribing, made it easy for me to follow the meeting realtime despite my WebEx issues
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: you had a week to review - could you provide your specific feedback rather than just asking for "more discussion" ?
#
rhiaro_
happy to help, tsyesika :)
#
wilkie
15 steps to decide an object type based on some arbitrary fields being present seems flimsy from an extensibility and a robustness point of view
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, i will comment on the wiki in few hours
#
KevinMarks_
wilkie: what si flimsy in practice is explicit object types that are invisible
#
wilkie
what makes them invisible?
#
aaronpk
even facebook and twitter don't have explicit object types
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: note that commenting doesn't stop when moving to w3c wiki, this is just about accepting it as an *editor's* draft since it's a resolution to one of the group's actions/issues!
#
KevinMarks_
not being evident to the human viewer
#
wilkie
I'm not sure I understand what that means
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: I expect feedback/iterations to continue while working on it in the group
#
wilkie
what is the difference between this algorithm and an explicit field that says what it is meant to be rendered as? except for the complexity of it.
#
KevinMarks_
the assumption that objects fit into hierarchies is at odds with how people perceive the world
#
wilkie
it doesn't need to be a hierarchy
#
KevinMarks_
we actaully think of things as matching various prototypes to different degrees
#
wilkie
besides, a 15-step algorithm is an ordering anyway, but that doesn't matter. a type is a type. not necessarily describes any subtypes.
#
wilkie
if you don't understand that explicit type, it's a 'note'
#
KevinMarks_
this draft models that process more empirically than requiring upfront labelling according to an existing model
#
wilkie
not sure what you gain with this algorithm, unless it is a fallback to an unknown explicit type. but the algorithm is too specific for that.
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, it looks specific for http://microformats.org vocabulary but it says "Activity Streams (1.0 or 2.0) JSON, or JSON output from parsing [microformats2]"
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wilkie
how do you add new types to the algorithm? what would that process be?
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KevinMarks_
you gain the ability to interpret things that have not been explicitly labelled according to your world model
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tantek
elf-pavlik: do you have a specific question?
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KevinMarks_
the process would be comparing examples and seeing where the decision point is
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elf-pavlik
it also diesn't have links to AS2.0 drafts even that it makes it a normative reference
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tantek
wilkie - so far based on publishing experience and evidence
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tantek
elf-pavlik: a-ha was waiting for today's publication
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tantek
adding links...
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elf-pavlik
i will comment on the wiki to track issues there
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KevinMarks_
also, it is possible that a post may be more than one type
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KevinMarks_
combined photo and checkin being an example that is under discussion
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wilkie
that doesn't seem possible in this algorithm
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tantek
thanks elf-pavlik - links to AS2 drafts added: https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Normative_References
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KevinMarks_
having written a lot of crawlers, you start out with supposedly clear divisions and end up with heuristics. Documenting and converging heuristics is a good idea.
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tantek
wilkie: your question about how other types are added is answered by this section: https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Other_Types_Under_Consideration
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wilkie
"Q: What about a reply that includes a photo?" "A: It should show up as a "reply" and not be in a user's published feed of their photos."
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wilkie
it's this kind of thing where you state How Things Are by "experience" where I feel you tend to over-specify and over-commit to user experience
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eprodrom
So, I just sent an email to the mailing list
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wilkie
haha I just can't commit to your world view
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wilkie
I have commitment issues
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eprodrom
Not sure if it's appropriate to post to IWC wiki or not since it's not about the document itself
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Loqi
http://meme.loqi.me/4d_JG0X0.jpg
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wilkie
every time loqi links to that I get scared a bit
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KevinMarks_
eprodrom: you can posse it to your site, aaron has a gateway https://quill.p3k.io/email
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eprodrom
Here are my main concerns
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elf-pavlik
tantek, issue added https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Issues
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eprodrom
* Does it fit with our charter? In other words, can we argue that taking on this work as part of the WG is related to the work that we're supposed to be doing?
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eprodrom
* Do we have the bandwidth for it? As a working group, do we have the time and attention to work on this document and move it forward?
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elf-pavlik
BTW https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/208 IMO aligns AS2.0 Vocabulary and Microformats Vocabulary further!
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tantek
eprodrom: it fits within the charter as its part of resolving an issue for AS2!
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eprodrom
* How does it relate to our other deliverables? Is it a replacement for the JSON-based social data syntax, or kind of a preprocessing best practice?
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tantek
eprodrom: it's a small document, and I have the bandwidth to work on it
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eprodrom
* What are our success criteria? Are we intending to publish this as a Note or Recommendation? Or is it there to inform implementers of the other specs? Or are there other goals for continued work with it?
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tantek
it's not a replacement for the JSON-based social data syntax, if anything it helps generate it
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eprodrom
* Who will work on the document? Who will be shepherding this format?
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eprodrom
Sounds like we have an answer to that last one, which is great
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elf-pavlik
tantek, I recommend taking with rhiaro about some major differences between how Microformats vocab and AS2.0 vocab work, I guess she understand them best out of all of us here
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eprodrom
And sorry for the copy-and-paste to the channel
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eprodrom
KevinMarks_: thx good point
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tantek
eprodrom: next step after editor's draft is to publish as a WD. eventual destination whether NOTE or REC will be up to implementation experience and WG
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tantek
it's definitely intended as a spec for implementers, so that we can get interop on Post Type Discovery for implementations that work without explicit typing
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elf-pavlik
s/guess/believe/
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tantek
re: inform implementers
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elf-pavlik
tantek, do you realize it doesn't work with current AS2.0 vocab?
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tantek
eprodrom: no problem re: copy and paste - thank you for providing that in the channel!
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eprodrom
tantek: no problem
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KevinMarks_
eprodrom: mapping existing data into whatever forms we are using is very important
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tantek
elf-pavlik: what "doesn't work?" specifically?
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elf-pavlik
needs to go for dinner
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elf-pavlik
please see my issue
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KevinMarks_
the documenting of that being lost with the AS1 work was big shame
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eprodrom
I need to run, I'd like to discuss further
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elf-pavlik
i can't offer more clarifications ATM, maybe rhiaro could help? we could discuss it in more depth tomorrow
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tantek
eprodrom: ok - I can add your Qs and the answers above to the FAQ in the document if you are ok with that
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KevinMarks_
we spent a good chunk of meetings mapping existing social models into AS1, but that never got formally published
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KevinMarks_
and it's buried in the AS wiki
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tantek
KevinMarks_: just goes to show, if it's not captured on the web, it may as well have never happened
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tantek
I tried looking in the AS wiki for such things to no avail
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tantek
it's likely lost in scribbles in the AS mailing list
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tantek
mailing lists are where ideas go to die
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elf-pavlik
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping
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KevinMarks_
http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/page/1359319/Verb%20Mapping
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elf-pavlik
KevinMarks_, do you see any like-of or rsvp (property not Class!)
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elf-pavlik
it only shares as:inReplyTo (with different spelling which this draft doesn't include)
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elf-pavlik
do you see photo or even as:image in http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-image
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KevinMarks_
in rpactice, http://support.gnip.com/sources/ is the most thorough source for mappings into AS1
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elf-pavlik
those models have *major* differences so tantek's draft only stays relevant to Microformats vocab
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I think you may be misunderstanding - this draft is showing how implementations can discover the types which can the be treated as AS2 types
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elf-pavlik
they will not discover it in AS2 data
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tantek
elf-pavlik: do you have real world publishing examples of AS2 which require type discovery?
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elf-pavlik
since it doesn't use properties existance of which it assumes
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tantek
if you can provide such examples, I'll happily document them and take a look at how to make the algorithm work with them
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elf-pavlik
if you really don't pay attention to supporting AS2.0 why bother including it?
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elf-pavlik
or at least AS2.0 vocab as it latest working draft
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I don't understand the post types that are discovered are directly compatible with AS2 types
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elf-pavlik
making it Microformats vocab specific simply removes confusion
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tantek
s/understand the/understand. The/
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: are these issues with it going to editor draft, or are these issues that would be after it goes to editor draft?
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KevinMarks_
hm, did echo die?
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KevinMarks_
http://www.echostudio.co/ says expired
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elf-pavlik
another issue, why not formalizing it using existing spec http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_domain
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elf-pavlik
i will add it to the wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme
though i am working and have not seen all the issues raised here, seems like most of them are things that get hashed out in editting
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tantek
elf-pavlik: better to formalize based on real world publishing practices
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ben_thatmustbeme
not an issue with it being an editor's draft
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tantek
why formalize based on theory when you can formalize based on practice?
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elf-pavlik
tantek, can you show how it works on examples inclouded in http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/
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elf-pavlik
i recommend starting with as:Like and as:Image
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elf-pavlik
your proposal will not find there properties it expects
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ben_thatmustbeme
honestly, i'm of the opinion the vocabularies should all be independant
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ben_thatmustbeme
between specs
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Shane_
Yep same here.
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tantek
elf-pavlik: can you provide a specific example?
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ben_thatmustbeme
if one social API spec gets wide use but others don't, thats still an improvement
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tantek
elf-pavlik: see above I think you're confused. this is more about generating AS2 semantics than consuming them
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tantek
since AS2 semantics currently requires explicit typing
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elf-pavlik
http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-like
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elf-pavlik
do you see any like-of there? no it uses 'object' property
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tantek
elf-pavlik: see above about your confusion - you're asking questions that don't make sense
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KevinMarks_
click the microformats equivalent tab, elf
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elf-pavlik
jasnell, ^
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tantek
elf-pavlik: from that URL:
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tantek
<div class="h-entry p-name">
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tantek
<span class="p-author h-card">Sally</span>
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tantek
liked
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tantek
<a class="u-like-of"
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tantek
href="http://example.org/notes/1">
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tantek
http://example.org/notes/1
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tantek
</a>
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tantek
</div>
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tantek
I'll add that example inline
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elf-pavlik
ISSUE-45
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trackbot
is looking up ISSUE-45.
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trackbot
http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/45
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trackbot
ISSUE-45 -- Conflicts between json-ld and mf2 examples -- open
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elf-pavlik
http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#termconventions
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elf-pavlik
"The Microdata, RDFa and Microformats examples included in this document are purely informative and may not currently reflect actual implementation experience or accepted best practices for each format. These alternate serializations may be removed from future iterations of this document and moved to a separate informative WG Note."
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KevinMarks_
in this case, hat like does represent actual implementation experiences
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elf-pavlik
KevinMarks_, but you don't find like-of in *normative* AS2.0 Vocabulary
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elf-pavlik
one can consider it 'background noise', at least as of its current state
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KevinMarks_
that implies the vocabulary needs changing to match reality to me
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elf-pavlik
if you like to change it, please propose it
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elf-pavlik
at this moment, as of nomative part of the draft AS2.0 DOES NOT include *like-of*
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elf-pavlik
I also don't see it in https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pulls
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: this goes back to the topic today, it may be that not everything need use AS2 vocabulary
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KevinMarks_
you are fundamentally misunderstanding the difference between standard as documentation and standard as legislaton
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elf-pavlik
I will -1 https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery as long as it suggests support of AS2.0 but doesn't actually do it
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ben_thatmustbeme
either way, its still an issue for "eidtors draft" stage
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tantek
elf-pavlik: like-of is established publishing practice: https://indiewebcamp.com/like#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek
I think you're mistaken in calling it 'background noise'
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ben_thatmustbeme
this whole discussion is pointless unless the group is accepting it as something it is working on
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elf-pavlik
tantek, please clarify in your draft that it works *only* with Microformats vocab http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties
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tantek
elf-pavlik: Examples section with example you requested has been added: https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Examples
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aaronpk
s/pointless unless/useful when
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tantek
elf-pavlik: why? I am open to people providing other syntaxes without explicit typing
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ben_thatmustbeme
point taken aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme
though i think elf-pavlik is ignoring me
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aaronpk
positive framing :)
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tantek
rather, providing *real world publishing examples of* other syntaxes
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elf-pavlik
tantek, i said *vocabulary* not Microformats+HTML syntax
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ben_thatmustbeme
thought i would say "useful only after"
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aaronpk
this discussion actually demonstrates that it should be accepted by the group :)
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tantek
elf-pavlik: yes, and I asked you to provide real world publishing examples
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elf-pavlik
further disambiguation on vocab/serialization on our wiki https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: +1
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I prefer direct evidence, please provide URLs with actual syntax being published
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ben_thatmustbeme
clearly there is interest in it
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pulls
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ben_thatmustbeme
*blink*
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tantek
elf-pavlik: which syntax is that URL evidence for?
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ben_thatmustbeme
umm, refspec?
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elf-pavlik
if this draft doesn't support AS2.0 (as of current state), why to cause confusion by including it there?
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elf-pavlik
http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-10-06/line/1444156595368
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KevinMarks_
here's an AS1 like as generated by Gnip from tumblr https://gist.github.com/gnippy/2630612#file-gistfile1-txt
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: I'm pretty sure tantek has repeatedly said he is willing to add examples of AS2.0, why are you insisting otherwise?
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elf-pavlik
folks, in many ways i enjoy this dance here but my belly demands Activity with property verb:eat and maybe first i need Activity with property verb:cook
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elf-pavlik
BTW this may actually work with proposed discovery :)
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tantek
elf-pavlik: why are you repeating yourself when you question has been answered? the URL I pasted https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Examples shows how the algorithm can help generate AS2 (thus support it)
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/208
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tantek
please stop saying "doesn't support AS2.0 (as of current state)" when that's no longer true!
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KevinMarks_
you can't do those until there is normative reference to them in http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/ sorry.
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csarven
I'd be interested in seeing an example of delete. Delete as in delete, not update reframed as delete.
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elf-pavlik
tantek, you use non normative background noise with property which DOES NOT exist in normative AS2.0 Vocabulary
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tantek
csarven: what do you think of using 410 for delete?
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elf-pavlik
jasnell, can we please resolve ISSUE-45 to avoid such confusions as we see here?
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elf-pavlik
guts to run
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tantek
elf-pavlik: your assertion "background noise" was debunked above with https://indiewebcamp.com/like#IndieWeb_Examples
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rhiaro_
reads backlog
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csarven
tantek Not opposed to it, but that's rather out-of-band, i.e., everything else is self-descriptive
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elf-pavlik
in context of current version of AS2.0 working draft (just published today) which doesn't need to reflect some experience of some peopel
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tantek
csarven: was attempting minimal (re)invention, by re-using 410
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rhiaro_
So... point of post-type-discovery is if you are a consumer, and you understand AS2 with explicit types, and you consume some data which *doesn't* have explicit types, you use this algorithm to get an explicit type so you can move on
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tantek
csarven: not "out of band" as all other HTTP responses must be accepted also, e.g. 200
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elf-pavlik
now really gone for Activity with action verb:cook and Acitivity with action verb:eat (which can support type discovery...)
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rhiaro_
but if you have a bunch of data which *otherwise* conforms to AS2, just without explicit types, post-type-discovery doesn't actually help for that yet
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rhiaro_
it does help if the non-typed data you have found is mf2
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csarven
tantek Is rhiaro's paraphrasing above accurate?
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro, this may offer some alignment :) https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/208
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tantek
rhiaro_: right, so I asked for real world publishing examples of "a bunch of data which *otherwise* conforms to AS2, just without explicit types" so that I could specify the algorithm accordingly
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rhiaro_
In order for post-type-discovery to be complete, would there need to be a path to follow to reach every explicit type in AS2?
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elf-pavlik
now gone gone :D
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tantek
and thus I'm open to it
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tantek
just no evidence yet
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tantek
e.g. from elf-pavlik etc.
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csarven
tantek Like I said, I'm not opposed to 410, but will there be data which states "this is deleted"?
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tantek
rhiaro_: not necessarily - currently the "completeness" of Post Type Discovery is based on evidence of real world publishing practices
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rhiaro_
and ICYMI, here's my version of the same, from which I generate AS2-ish-conformat activities: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/09/post-type
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aaronpk
csarven: would a "deleted at" timestamp suffice?
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tantek
csarven: likely for display purposes yes, just as HTTP 404 responses typically include HTML that says something about the Page not found
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tantek
rhiaro_: also another reason to not worry about "every explicit type in AS2" is that there is no evidence to suggest all the explicit types in AS2 are needed - that is, I think a lot of them could be dropped based on absence of interest / implementation / publication
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csarven
tantek aaronpk I was hoping for something more "machine-readable" than natural language. So, yes, an explicit property for deleted would go in that direction.
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KevinMarks_
410 is machine readable
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tantek
csarven: ah ok interesting - so some variant of h-entry?
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csarven
KevinMarks_ Self-descriptive data!
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tantek
as in you want the 410 page to have the data in it?
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rhiaro_
tantek: sure, I agree that not everything in AS2 is needed. I meant, assuming that the final result of AS2 is a version in which core things remain
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KevinMarks_
like this one? http://www.klickreflex.com/2015/just-a-test
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rhiaro_
So, to me right now, post-type-discovery reads as a bridge between non-AS2 publishers and AS2 consumers. Which seems very useful - but is that in the scope of the group?
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KevinMarks_
(which I coincidentally saw a minute ago)
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tantek
csarven: that makes sense to me. I'd likely store such "deleted" h-entrys myself in my own storage as tombstones of deleted entries!
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rhiaro_
Re: deleted - view source of these posts? http://indiewebcamp.com/delete#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek
which my CMS would use to then know to return a 410 response
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csarven
tantek I don't want anything in particular. I'm just trying to understand whether the proposal or what it is headed towards has concerned or working on a solution that is *to be an alternative* for how typing is derived in AS2 (I'm not sure at this moment whether the proposal is for AS2 only or everything else... I've only noticed the ISSUE being categorized under AS2)
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aaronpk
I also return a 410 response and an updated h-entry http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/08/03/1/cocktail
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csarven
s/concerned/considered
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aaronpk
I would definitely be interested in adding a "deleted-at" timestamp
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KevinMarks_
http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.klickreflex.com%2F2015%2Fjust-a-test&html=&pretty=on
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rhiaro_
Also noted some stuff about delete type posts here http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/05/micropubbing-with
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tantek
csarven, yes the proposal is to help any implementation that uses explicit types currently, including any AS2 consumers
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csarven
aaronpk dt-deleted properly for mf2 folks provided that it goes through the mf /process ? ;) (friendly wink.. no worries)
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csarven
s/properly/probably
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tantek
csarven: yeah - would need to be added as an experimental proposal, then gather implementation / publishing experience etc.
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tantek
aaronpk: why "deleted-at" when "dt-updated" would likely provide that info?
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KevinMarks_
hm, aaronpk, thta has a weird author http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes%2F2014%2F08%2F03%2F1%2Fcocktail&html=&pretty=on
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csarven
May want to consider dt-inserted (to keep in line with <ins>/<del> I suppose.. but this is for #microformats)
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tantek
or are you seeing value in knowing the last content updated datetime *before* the deletion?
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aaronpk
hmm not sure
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tantek
csarven: nah, dt-updated is from Atom 1.0 "updated"
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rhiaro_
yeah I thought we have discussed this before - dt-updated, change content to empty or tombstone content, and 410 for a delete h-entry
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rhiaro_
although dt-deleted does make it more explicit
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tantek
rhiaro_: right, we had, hence I'm asking (optimistically) if aaronpk somehow has a use-case for separate dt-deleted from dt-updated
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KevinMarks_
the issue of the 410 being lost once fetched is there, like all status codes
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aaronpk
KevinMarks_: I think I did that intentionally, to "delete" the author as well
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tantek
i'm not opposed to dt-deleted, just trying to understand the use-case driving it
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rhiaro_
described: http://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Tombstoning
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aaronpk
oh that's a good point, once the HTTP request is done, there is nothing in the storage of the post that indicates it's deleted
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tantek
dt-deleted provides a nice complement to dt-published
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tantek
and there have also been brainstorms about dt-created for offline posts before they are published
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csarven
As rhiaro was trying to rephrase tantek's point earlier; if in the absence of explicit types, one can derive the type via explicit properties -- that sounds reasonable to me. However, two things to consider: 1) whether that alternative is just necessary or not 2) whether that is of interest or should be part of something that the WG needs to deliver. I don't have a strong view on this.. just hoping that it is not overlooked.
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aaronpk
like if i'm storing a copy of tantek's posts, I would need to store the HTTP status code somewhere if there was no "deleted" property
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KevinMarks_
right, that's the issue - having a marker that this is a tombstone is csarven's point
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aaronpk
that seems like a good reason
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aaronpk
s/reason/use case
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tantek
which is a reasonable point - but that could be done with a boolean
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aaronpk
i thought there were no booleans in mf2
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tantek
point is, how does it justify a separate dt property from dt-updated?
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tantek
sure - try to avoid them, just like CSS does
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KevinMarks_
it could be an explicit type, h-tombstone, but that seems counterproductive
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ben_thatmustbeme
gah, i go to add my site to the indieweb examples of deleted, and there is another page of text to catch up on
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KevinMarks_
as an h-entry that says it's deleted is better
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tantek
let's start with the real world question - does anyone who supports "deleted" posts keep track of their datetime deleted *separate* from the last time they updated their content?
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aaronpk
the benefit of the h-entry is consumers that don't understand the "deleted" property or HTTP 410 will likely treat it as an update and replace the text
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KevinMarks_
right
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KevinMarks_
so that is better than creating a h-tombstone
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aaronpk
tantek: my new site keeps track of it separately
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tantek
yes, good falsification KevinMarks, aaronpk
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KevinMarks_
but having a property that indicates deletion is a good idea
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tantek
aaronpk: your new site keeps track of the date of deletion? or just the fact that it is deleted?
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KevinMarks_
because of the ephemerality of the status code
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tantek
KevinMarks_: "good idea" is not good enough ;)
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aaronpk
yes it creates a log entry of the date of the deletion
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tantek
aaronpk: interesting, can you add that detail to: https://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Aaron_Parecki
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aaronpk
(my new site actually has a separate stream that is a log of everything that has happened on the site)
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aaronpk
not sure i want to add that as an example until it's live
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tantek
aaronpk: no problem, in that case add it to https://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Brainstorming for now
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aaronpk
since I can't back it up with any permalinks right now
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tantek
you can add stuff without permalinks to https://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Brainstorming
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tantek
especially if you document an intent to implement there
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aaronpk
okay
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: how about you? does your CMS keep track of the date of deletion of the post indepededently from the updated date?
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KevinMarks_
twitter has delete items in the stream
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aaronpk
right, that's how they propagate deletions to clients
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aaronpk
clients/readers
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tantek
KevinMarks_: perhaps you can document what you mean by that in https://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Silo_Examples ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: no it doesn't
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ben_thatmustbeme
i just have a boolean flag of deleted or not
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: is that an itch for you?
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ben_thatmustbeme
not really
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ben_thatmustbeme
it would be super easy to add
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tantek
can you add both that detail and that note about "not really [an itch]" to https://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Ben_Roberts ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
a date of null = not deleted
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tantek
and "super easy to add"
#
tantek
that's good for immediate feedback/consideration
#
tantek
here's a possible use-case for separate deleted vs updated dates: a separate updated date may provide the consuming code enough information to retrieve the last updated version of the post from an (indie) archive, purely by URL + date lookup.
#
tantek
however, the question is, is that use-case of sufficient interest to anyone besides say, the Internet Archive?
#
tantek
e.g. would you use that to show/freeze the last version of a comment or reply-context of a deleted post?
#
csarven
410 is orthogonal to self-descriptive data. The point of the activity streams is to broadcast or dip into the information as to what happened - and this is at the heart of it. 410 on the other hand is only provided when the resource is requested - and this is a good practice.
#
aaronpk
i think we're all agreed on that
#
tantek
I think I prefer an explicit h-entry property as well, rather than trying to fake it with <meta http-equiv STATUS 410 > kind of hack
#
rhiaro_
Perhaps if you don't want to provide tombstone content - ie. you just want to nuke the post, but still want to track when that happened, dt-deleted will help a reader to know what's going on better than dt-updated - otherwise it'll just update what it displays to an empty post? Or maybe the reader should know not to display anything if there's no content property... </braindump>
#
Loqi
Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-06-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85879&oldid=0
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KevinMarks_
showing a human readable deletion message seems better;
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KevinMarks_
having a machine readable marker too seems better still, then a client can decide whether to show it or not
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aaronpk
machine readable marker plus human readable fallback
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ben_thatmustbeme
true
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ben_thatmustbeme
honestly i don't really see much use for storing a date deleted
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KevinMarks_
the human readable fallback also follows the principle of 'to delete something, overwrite it with something else first'
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tantek
human readable fallback *marked up with* machine readable marker
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tantek
tying those two together helps improve data reliability
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KevinMarks_
yes
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cwebber2
https://identi.ca/cwebber/note/riVqREL9Sbq_lENokDSQOw <- we'll be having a meeting this thursday on making pump.io move to activitypump and etc, amongst other things
#
cwebber2
if anyone here would like to join
#
tantek
cwebber2: did you find any real world benefits to the added work to support JSONLD? or was it just busywork to satisfy the spec?
#
tantek
I think there's a lot of resistance to JSONLD by implementers because it seems like a big YAGNI
#
tantek
(especially how strongly it is promoted by those who are not actually implementing it themselves, but for pseudo-architectural reasons)
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cwebber2
tantek: for me it's useful, because I'm planning on working on something a bit outside the normal realm of "blogpost style federation", which is a little game, and I tried to mock it up, and I couldn't figure out how to do the types
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cwebber2
I tried also doing a type mapping myself, then realized I was duplicating the expansion work
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cwebber2
*however*
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cwebber2
it is a lot of work to implement json-ld expansion
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cwebber2
it's a lot of code
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tantek
I'm confused, how does "couldn't figure out how to do the types" relate to "useful" for JSONLD at all?
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cwebber2
tantek: I wanted to be able to nicely expand out what @type expanded to in a flexible way
#
tantek
games are certainly an interesting use-case
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cwebber2
and wanted an "interact" verb
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cwebber2
but wanted it to map to something
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cwebber2
so that's when I took interest
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cwebber2
tantek: my *initial* version of it did all the URI mapping manually
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cwebber2
basically a big hashtable
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cwebber2
I think that's more than fine, or even actually not necessary for things just doing the base case of activitystreams
#
cwebber2
you could implement something like pump.io or GNU Social (former StatusNet) in just the base activity
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cwebber2
and just ignore everything outside of the implied context
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cwebber2
it was that I wanted to do something weirder
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cwebber2
that lead me to experiment there
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cwebber2
tantek: but also... I wanted to understand personally if json-ld was really so complex or not.
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cwebber2
since we're recommending it
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cwebber2
I should know
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cwebber2
well
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cwebber2
sort of
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cwebber2
it's not required, since there's an implied context
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cwebber2
but it's acknowledged to be there, so I wanted a deeper understanding of what putting that in the spec meant
#
cwebber2
so my conclusion is: json-ld is fine once someone already wrote a library for you to use.
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cwebber2
it'll be trouble if someone is using a library without an existing json-ld implementation
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tantek
that's my worry - if everyone has to depend on a library for JSONLD then it's not really CR worthy
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cwebber2
I don't think that's true
#
tantek
especially if the supposed discernible benefits are available independently
#
cwebber2
tantek: HTML is a useful spec that is useful because *someone else did the work*
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cwebber2
but
#
tantek
e.g. "did all the URI mapping manually"
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cwebber2
I think activitystreams already did it ok
#
cwebber2
because if I just wanted to do something where everything's basically a blogpost
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tantek
single spec != single library/implementation
#
tantek
two very different things
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cwebber2
json-ld is not needed, the context is implied
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cwebber2
so I think activitystreams 2.0 does it smart: you only get complex when you actually get complex
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cwebber2
("does it smart", how do I grammar??)
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tantek
that's better than dumb, but I wouldn't consider it good enough for "smart" :)
#
tantek
e.g. AS1 had extensible object-types without JSONLD
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cwebber2
tantek: the web totally relies on someone doing the hard parts for you already though :)
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cwebber2
html is too complex if everyone had to implement a parser themselves
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cwebber2
luckily they don't have to!
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tantek
if extensible object-types (and verbs?) are the use-case, I think we can still make those work without requiring JSONLD
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cwebber2
I think json-ld does it fine
#
cwebber2
and honestly
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cwebber2
most people don't need it.
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tantek
cwebber2: however there are numerous HTML parsers - that's the point
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cwebber2
tantek: json-ld has pretty wide language availability
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cwebber2
the main problem is I went off in crazy-town by using scheme :)
#
tantek
scheme as in Lisp?
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cwebber2
tantek: yes
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tantek
!!!
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cwebber2
tantek: again, this is my own experimental repo :)
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cwebber2
but yeah
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cwebber2
want to see way too many parentheses? :)
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cwebber2
https://github.com/cwebber/activitystuff/blob/master/activitystuff/json-ld.scm
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tantek
resists
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cwebber2
pump.io uses javascript, mediagoblin uses python, so those projects are more mainstream
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cwebber2
but I wanted to learn things for my own purposes on this one :)
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cwebber2
I'll tell you, writing a purely functional json-ld parser
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cwebber2
*that* was quite the exercise :)
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tantek
yikes
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cwebber2
anyway, I think json-ld is just fine for extensibility, as long as languages have libraries... but python, java, ruby, javascript, php, c# all do
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cwebber2
and that's most of the languages people use for webdev
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cwebber2
so it's fine.
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cwebber2
plus soon, maybe crazy parenthesis addicts might even have something ;)
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tantek
heh
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tantek
I suppose there will be the question of whether it is necessary for extensiblity or not - seems like a pretty heavyweight price to pay for that
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cwebber2
maybe
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tantek
good to know at least it meets the "workable" bar
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cwebber2
though, I don't think it's hard to use
#
tantek
cross-language and all that
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cwebber2
again, as long as you don't write it yourself
#
tantek
(I mean, so did XML, and all the XML extensibility stuff, and look where we are)
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cwebber2
if you write it yourself, well... in a sense, the api doc for json-ld is just great
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tantek
(and all the XML parsers cross-language etc.)
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tantek
(hence my skepticism)
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cwebber2
I wrote most of the json-ld code not knowing what I was doing and it still worked ;)
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tantek
hah!
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cwebber2
but it's a *lot* of code
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tantek
that's my concern
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cwebber2
and translating from imperative->procedural was the hard part
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tantek
especially for smaller implementations
#
tantek
e.g. one of the reasons a lot of us (myself included) gave up on OpenID was because of the "a lot of code"
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cwebber2
tantek: I think I'd share that concern, but I think smaller implementations already don't need to use extensibility
#
tantek
despite cross-language support etc.
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cwebber2
I only went down that path once I decided to experiment on a federated MUD ;)
#
tantek
interesting - in indieweb it's the QS stuff that's pushing the edges of extensibility
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cwebber2
what's QS?
#
tantek
though we have some work on game playing tracking too
#
tantek
QS = quantified self
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cwebber2
aha
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cwebber2
yeah
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tantek
tracking exercises, what you eat/drink etc.
#
tantek
cwebber2: aside, did you have a chance to review https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery at least for consideration as a WG editor's draft?
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cwebber2
tantek: notably, I think a lot of things are complex; extracting microformats from html is also a bit too much to ask everyone to write a parser for, but one nice thing is, indieweb already provides that stuff!
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cwebber2
so I think that's okay.
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cwebber2
tantek: I did, I thought about how it would apply and if it could apply to activitypump, and I think it might be able to in this way:
#
cwebber2
(I'm curious what you'll think)
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tantek
agreed re: "to ask everyone to write a parser for", hence simillarly, cross-language existing parser support: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers
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cwebber2
basically, some clients may want exactly that kind of "inferred type" stuff
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cwebber2
you don't want the user to have to think about types if it's a blogpost type submission thing, so that makes sense
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tantek
right
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cwebber2
so it's still compatible:
#
tantek
which is why I think it is appropriate as a WG work item
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cwebber2
either the client on client->server, or the originating server, can use this to produce a @type
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tantek
exactly!
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cwebber2
so the server to server with activitypump can already have determined it
#
cwebber2
so it's fine, still standard activitystreams stuff
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cwebber2
tantek: so I think that's a pretty good route for doing this
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cwebber2
tantek: note, I grabbed that after only skimming this, but I'm glad to hear you think that's how it should work for an activitypump mapping
#
tantek
great - hoping that means you're a +1 with the proposal to take it up in the WG as an editor's draft
#
tantek
since Arnaud said we didn't have enough input for resolution this week
#
tantek
I'm hoping to proactively discuss with people before next week's telcon
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cwebber2
tantek: I'm minimum +0, quite possibly at +1, I should probably actually *read* it first.
#
tantek
to resolve any concerns
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cwebber2
tantek: I think there are some places where this could be useful for some pump clients to implement.
#
tantek
note that it obv can have outstanding issues
#
tantek
the real question is, is it relevant to the WG (charter / other specs) and of interest to WG members?
#
tantek
which it sounds like you're saying "yes" to - hence if you find any concerns on that level - please let me know!
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cwebber2
tantek: I'm not positive if it's of scope, but it's of interest to me.
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cwebber2
that's my answer, for this moment!
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cwebber2
so there's some inclusion within this sphere, whether it fits as a spec under this umbrella, I'm not totally sure, but I like it, and it very well may.
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tantek
cwebber2: cool - well you can certainly work with / on it in # indiewebcamp until/if/when the WG accepts it
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cwebber2
tantek: I'll read it again and give it more thought!
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cwebber2
cool.
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cwebber2
tantek: bd!
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tantek
I believe it fits as an adjunct to AS2
#
tantek
specifically for all the implementer reasons you pointed out
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cwebber2
tantek: btw, context on bd
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cwebber2
http://www.asheesh.org/note/communication/thumbs-up.html
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tantek
bd?
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tantek
haha ok
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cwebber2
:)
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cwebber2
okay, awesome, pump.io group scheduled, now to churn through my email, then write some emails myself!
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tantek
wow that's hilarious. b, p, bd are voticons
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elf-pavlik
!tell tantek, if find interest in Microformats -> AS2.0 conversion, https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery seems to provide some steps in that direction, it would still need few extra steps! One should have possibility to convert all data published with Microformats into AS2.0 but to my understanding converting from AS2.0 to Microformat most likely will loose information (sort of gracefully degrade)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_
I suspect that's backwards, elf-pavlik. as2 has a fixed vocabulary; mf2 has a flexible one.
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro, I can't find your post about differences in how we see (fixed / flexible) in terms of parsing ... http://rhiaro.co.uk/tag/socialwg
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elf-pavlik
KevinMarks_, what do you mean by 'flexible one' ?
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KevinMarks_
http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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elf-pavlik
i guess you refer to p3k-food etc. ?
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elf-pavlik
one can use properties like p3K:food with AS2.0 as well
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elf-pavlik
preferably by mapping p3k: prefix to something like http://p3k.io/ns/ to avoid colisions...
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elf-pavlik
KevinMarks_, I think we still have a long way to go before all participants of this group will start really understand each other and various technologies represented
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elf-pavlik
I see "as2 has a fixed vocabulary" as misunderstanding, AS2.0 allows use any vocabulary from http://lov.okfn.org (including http://schema.org) and eventually mf: which would take some more work in https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf
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elf-pavlik
As well as everyone can define one's own custom vocab for snowflakes ;)
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elf-pavlik
URI based vocabs recommended by AS2.0 also allow converging terms over time, while non unique string based vocabs like Microformats as of today besides possible collision of indepedently defined properties/types also don't provide path to disover conversion of terms
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elf-pavlik
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax/User_Stories#Converging_vocabulary_terms
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elf-pavlik
s/conversion/convergence/
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elf-pavlik
URI based vocabs simply take advantage of 'follow your nose' to for example find out that give term merged into another one http://schema.org/supersededBy
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aaronpk
you know I have never actually seen any of these vocab namespacing URLs lead to an actual web page. most of the time they are either unresolved domains or 404 pages.
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aaronpk
happy to be shown one that actually goes somewhre
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cwebber2
the web is so fragile :\
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, http://schema.org/supersededBy
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: that's not an example
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cwebber2
but, maybe the future will have more content addressed storage based URIs or something, and less reliance on ICANN overlords
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cwebber2
one can dream, right?
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aaronpk
it's not an ICANN issue
#
aaronpk
it's literally peopel not putting up pages that explain the vocab
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cwebber2
ah
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, true! sometimes just put pages for machines and ignore people who request text/html
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aaronpk
my browser would do *something* if there were content there
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cwebber2
at least ccrel got that right :)
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elf-pavlik
we experiment with few other people on new vocab and will make sure that it provides HTML pages for people to look at
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aaronpk
like I said, I'm happy to be shown an exmaple
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aaronpk
but so far you're just telling me there are exmaples and not actually providing any
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aaronpk
so..not really helping
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cwebber2
aaronpk: CCrel does it
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cwebber2
I honestly don't have much experience with vocabs outside of ccrel though
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cwebber2
that's the only thing I seriously ever worked with and thus paid attention to
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person
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aaronpk
better!
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cwebber2
aaronpk: http://creativecommons.org/ns#attributionURL
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elf-pavlik
http://rdfs.org/sioc/ns#Post
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I think a number of vocabs do this
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cwebber2
but not enough probably
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aaronpk
maybe things have gotten better in recent years
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cwebber2
I thought most of the basic ones with rdfa did
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cwebber2
when I looked at them
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cwebber2
last
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cwebber2
dublin core does right?
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cwebber2
looks again
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elf-pavlik
http://www.w3.org/ns/org#Organization
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elf-pavlik
http://purl.org/ontology/cco/core#skill
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elf-pavlik
https://w3id.org/verb/#like
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cwebber2
http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/#title
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cwebber2
yeah
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cwebber2
dublin core does
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cwebber2
I think pretty much all vocabs I've looked at have..
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cwebber2
but maybe some don't
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cwebber2
aaronpk: anyway, it certainly is best practice!
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aaronpk
good, that's way more than I found last time I looked. (a few years ago)
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cwebber2
nonetheless I do worry that some day those domains will go down and things will be sad.
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cwebber2
but
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cwebber2
that's so much of the web
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cwebber2
that it's hardly just a metadata issue
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cwebber2
sad intarwebs
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2, I use https://w3id.org to avoid expiring domains https://github.com/perma-id/w3id.org/issues/81#issuecomment-101509647
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cwebber2
maybe someday someone will square zooko's triangle in a way that doesn't require people to download a never-ending growing blockchain and then they will point me to it
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elf-pavlik
https://w3id.org
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aaronpk
but...that relies on w3id.org to stay registered doesn't it?
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: ah yeah w3id.org... it's a "good" hack
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cwebber2
comparatively
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cwebber2
as in, working within constraints
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, for now it expires in 2024
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aaronpk
that's close enough to the end of unixtime that it'll probably be fine ;)
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cwebber2
epochalypse now
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aaronpk
all the computers are going to stop working then anyway, then we can all go home
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elf-pavlik
"here are a growing group of organizations that have pledged responsibility to ensure the operation of this website. These organizations are: Digital Bazaar, 3 Round Stones, OpenLink Software, Applied Testing and Technology, Openspring, and Bosatsu Consulting."
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cwebber2
aaronpk: finally!
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cwebber2
I'm tired of all these computers anyway.
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, do you see any problems with providing HTTP URLs for each property and type defined by Microformats vocab?
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aaronpk
that'd be fine
#
elf-pavlik
this way people who choose to use JSON-LD have straight forward path to use Microformats vocabulary
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elf-pavlik
JSON-LD spec even mentions Microformats vocabulary! http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, I star writing cook and eat activities in JSON-LD using AS2.0 with modifications I propose to it
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elf-pavlik
how would i write them using microformats ?
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cwebber2
tries to think of a python library name for AS 2.0 and unit tests stuff
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cwebber2
cheats and calls this "pytivity" for now
#
elf-pavlik
cwebber2, do you have interest in migraing https://github.com/e14n/openfarmgame
#
cwebber2
can't think of a python library name? just start with py and mash something together
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: ha, that would be awesome. Though I think that should be done in pump.io
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cwebber2
not in a python reimplementation
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: we're having a meeting about moving pump.io to AS 2.0 this thursday
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cwebber2
maybe you'd like to join?
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elf-pavlik
sure!
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cwebber2
you know node.js, you can probably help
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cwebber2
https://identi.ca/cwebber/note/riVqREL9Sbq_lENokDSQOw
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: awesome
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elf-pavlik
yeah, i mostly work with js in last years
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cwebber2
it would be great to have you helping out :)
#
elf-pavlik
I sit here with some of the people working on http://openfoodnetwork.org/
#
cwebber2
elf-pavlik: next up: a openfoodnetwork / openfarmgame mashup ;)
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cwebber2
jk jk
#
elf-pavlik
I need to show them examples of activities like: plant, harvest, water, cook, eat ...
#
cwebber2
openfarmgame is not much of a game but it's an interesting proof of concept
#
cwebber2
though for a while, people loved it
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cwebber2
my activity feed was full of people watering corn...
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cwebber2
kind of annoying actually :)
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2, datetime link doesn't work for me (in your post)
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: huh, how'd I mess that up
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elf-pavlik
can you update it? will the update propagate to subscribers? ;)
#
cwebber2
elf-pavlik: it will update, if I could get the link to work
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elf-pavlik
in next days I will need to get from country side to Paris (most likely hitchhiking), I'll still try to join this meeting!
#
elf-pavlik
cwebber2, I see no details of how to join this meeting https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/wiki/Meeting-2015-10-08
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cwebber2
stabs the computer
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elf-pavlik
Oh, I see: "#pump.io on irc.freenode.net"
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cwebber2
well
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cwebber2
something is busted in pumpa
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elf-pavlik
just joined #pump.io but doesn't see cwebber2 there ;)
#
cwebber2
elf-pavlik: I'm paroneayea there
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cwebber2
not a very familiar username!
#
cwebber2
I'm not explaining it! today :)
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elf-pavlik
np
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elf-pavlik
ofg:harvest \o/ https://github.com/e14n/openfarmgame/blob/7d46292ce8653da3c00fe2dcba74f27750ad38ae/models/farmer.js#L213-L216
#
aaronpk
see that's what i'm talking about
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aaronpk
http://openfarmgame.com/schema/verb/harvest ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 967 karma
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elf-pavlik
!tell eprodrom "http://openfarmgame.com/schema/verb/harvest ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED" http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-10-06/line/1444171757028
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell elf-pavlik you provide the FOAF Person URL as an example to aaronpk of a vocab URL that actually shows something in a browser, and yet, it provides a good counter example of your assertion that URL based vocabs allow/encourage convergence, because if they did, FOAF Person would have been collapsed back into vCard (prior vocab, more standard). Your faith in URL based vocabs does not bear out in practice.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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