elf-pavlik!tell harry will you stay in Paris one of next days, I plan to stay around here for couple more days and we could meet up :) also http://www.xwiki.org team would like to discuss possibilities for interop
rhiaro_... People can generate reports using the test suites against their implementation, send reports back, someone cosolidates the reports and we use this to justify that the spec can got to proposed rec
rhiaro_... Everybody knows we have had an effort made by IBM to start a test suite, but I was hoping there would be peopel who can help out and take it to the next step. We haven't seen that happen. It's unclear at this point who is planning to implement it
rhiaro_eprodrom: I'd like to discuss the timeframe that we're in right now. We've been discussing among chairs, but I put it on the proposed agenda items for f2f, that we'll be discussing the progress of AS2.0 and what our way forward is
rhiaro_... Some are of the opinion we are documenting the state of the industry. If we get to the f2f and there haven't been changes outside our group, our job is to represent that external reality and make our decision based on that
rhiaro_Arnaud: What we're tryign to tell everybody is that we are concerned we don't see much activity on those axis. We need to look at this seroiusly and come to the f2f with expression of support or not
rhiaro_cwebber: I was working on an AS2.0 representation library, and having worked on it it made me think that the most technical aspect of it is the optional requirement of JSON-LD. Otherwise mostly it's just a serialisation in JSON
rhiaro_cwebber: I'm not interested in talking about my own implementation for this part of the call. But I ended up hitting the point where I wanted to implement types, and if we did have the option to extend with JSON-LD I needed to write a JSON-LD expander, so I did
rhiaro_jasnell: Evan's point about giving it those scenarios and test if they're valid, eg. Sally uploaded a photo, there are only ac ertain number of ways that can be encoded, we can test if that works properly
rhiaro_elf-pavlik: The point I added about relevance to as2.0 vocabulary to social api, I would like to clarify if there's a strict requirement to use vocabulary in social api and federation, or if there will be another vocabulary
rhiaro_eprodrom: I think this is a concern that we don't even have consensus that we're going to use JSON in our social api, much less that we're going to use AS2.0 or JSON-LD. I don't think this makes any sense. I think if we're going to use AS2.0 we need to just make it go forward rather than holding off
rhiaro_... I agree with harry that it feels that the charter is we have the social data syntax, and an api that uses that syntax. If we went with an api that does not use that syntax, it would be pretty remarkable, we would have to justify it
rhiaro_tantek: Certainly AS2 is the most mature of all the different technologies and charter areas that we've been pursuing. Like evan, I'm conerned that if we're not going to make progress with AS2 then we need to take a hard look at the purpose of this group
rhiaro_... On the other hand, regarding API candidates, one of the strong candidates which is micropub (strong on the basis of numerous deployed implementations interoperating clients and servers) does not reuqire AS2
rhiaro_... The whole conversation about AS2.0 and whether that's linked to standard stuff.. when I was in Boston over the weekend I talked to people in MediaGoblin community and others in this group, and had a lot of thoughts
rhiaro_... Second question, for implementation, would be useful to have python library that can consume and produce AS2.0. Is that something that's part of these next steps for MediaGoblin, and something youc ould share?
rhiaro_cwebber: I think that's possible. Need to talk to tsyesika. I'm optimistic. Was thinking when you said earlier that we do a commandline test suite, it might not be too hard to write that as a little python application. Something like that might end up happening.
rhiaro_hhalpin: I was just discussing this with Wendy Seltzer. Other groups have had this issue. No other group has resolved it successfully. But as long as the group has consensus on what software and everyone can use it, it is okay to swtich off webex
eprodrom* What are our success criteria? Are we intending to publish this as a Note or Recommendation? Or is it there to inform implementers of the other specs? Or are there other goals for continued work with it?
elf-pavlik"The Microdata, RDFa and Microformats examples included in this document are purely informative and may not currently reflect actual implementation experience or accepted best practices for each format. These alternate serializations may be removed from future iterations of this document and moved to a separate informative WG Note."
rhiaro_So... point of post-type-discovery is if you are a consumer, and you understand AS2 with explicit types, and you consume some data which *doesn't* have explicit types, you use this algorithm to get an explicit type so you can move on
tantekrhiaro_: right, so I asked for real world publishing examples of "a bunch of data which *otherwise* conforms to AS2, just without explicit types" so that I could specify the algorithm accordingly
tantekrhiaro_: also another reason to not worry about "every explicit type in AS2" is that there is no evidence to suggest all the explicit types in AS2 are needed - that is, I think a lot of them could be dropped based on absence of interest / implementation / publication
csarventantek I don't want anything in particular. I'm just trying to understand whether the proposal or what it is headed towards has concerned or working on a solution that is *to be an alternative* for how typing is derived in AS2 (I'm not sure at this moment whether the proposal is for AS2 only or everything else... I've only noticed the ISSUE being categorized under AS2)
csarvenAs rhiaro was trying to rephrase tantek's point earlier; if in the absence of explicit types, one can derive the type via explicit properties -- that sounds reasonable to me. However, two things to consider: 1) whether that alternative is just necessary or not 2) whether that is of interest or should be part of something that the WG needs to deliver. I don't have a strong view on this.. just hoping that it is not overlooked.
tantekhere's a possible use-case for separate deleted vs updated dates: a separate updated date may provide the consuming code enough information to retrieve the last updated version of the post from an (indie) archive, purely by URL + date lookup.
csarven410 is orthogonal to self-descriptive data. The point of the activity streams is to broadcast or dip into the information as to what happened - and this is at the heart of it. 410 on the other hand is only provided when the resource is requested - and this is a good practice.
rhiaro_Perhaps if you don't want to provide tombstone content - ie. you just want to nuke the post, but still want to track when that happened, dt-deleted will help a reader to know what's going on better than dt-updated - otherwise it'll just update what it displays to an empty post? Or maybe the reader should know not to display anything if there's no content property... </braindump>
cwebber2tantek: for me it's useful, because I'm planning on working on something a bit outside the normal realm of "blogpost style federation", which is a little game, and I tried to mock it up, and I couldn't figure out how to do the types
cwebber2tantek: notably, I think a lot of things are complex; extracting microformats from html is also a bit too much to ask everyone to write a parser for, but one nice thing is, indieweb already provides that stuff!
elf-pavlik!tell tantek, if find interest in Microformats -> AS2.0 conversion, https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery seems to provide some steps in that direction, it would still need few extra steps! One should have possibility to convert all data published with Microformats into AS2.0 but to my understanding converting from AS2.0 to Microformat most likely will loose information (sort of gracefully degrade)
elf-pavlikURI based vocabs recommended by AS2.0 also allow converging terms over time, while non unique string based vocabs like Microformats as of today besides possible collision of indepedently defined properties/types also don't provide path to disover conversion of terms
elf-pavlik"here are a growing group of organizations that have pledged responsibility to ensure the operation of this website. These organizations are: Digital Bazaar, 3 Round Stones, OpenLink Software, Applied Testing and Technology, Openspring, and Bosatsu Consulting."
tantek!tell elf-pavlik you provide the FOAF Person URL as an example to aaronpk of a vocab URL that actually shows something in a browser, and yet, it provides a good counter example of your assertion that URL based vocabs allow/encourage convergence, because if they did, FOAF Person would have been collapsed back into vCard (prior vocab, more standard). Your faith in URL based vocabs does not bear out in practice.