#social

2017-07-25

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Loqi
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103930&oldid=103854
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Loqi
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103933&oldid=103930
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Loqi
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103936&oldid=103933
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Loqi
Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103959&oldid=103936
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Loqi
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103962&oldid=103959
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cwebber2
uh
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cwebber2
aaronpk: why did you undo a bunch of items on the agenda?
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aaronpk
wat
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cwebber2
I assume that must have been a mistake
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cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg%2F2017-07-25&diff=103962&oldid=103936
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aaronpk
that's not what i see https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103962&oldid=103959
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aaronpk
rhiaro did that https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103959&oldid=103936
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cwebber2
oh
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cwebber2
rhiaro why did you remove action items? :)
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rhiaro
huh. I just added my partial regrets
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rhiaro
Sigh.
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cwebber2
I'll add it back :)
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rhiaro
sorrryyyy
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rhiaro
I shouldn't have edited the whole page
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rhiaro
rookie error
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cwebber2
np :)
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Loqi
I agree
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Loqi
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103963&oldid=103962
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Loqi
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103964&oldid=103963
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tantek
good morning #social
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sandro
present+
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sandro
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
/me is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent
logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/07/25-social-irc
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 25 July 2017
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sandro
present+
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tantek
present+
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xmpp-social
[ajordan] h2b: I should clarify, I'm the admin of this _room_, not the entire XMPP server
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aaronpk
present+
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xmpp-social
[ajordan] I would poke around koderoot.net for some contact into
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jaywink
present+
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xmpp-social
[ajordan] Telecon people: dialing in; I'll be present+ in a sec
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ajordan
present+
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rhiaro
present+
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cwebber2
present+
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cwebber2
/me hey welcome back to the wg jaywink :)
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ajordan
/me ^^^
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jaywink
cwebber2: heh thanks. was in the last meeting too ;) I think
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tantek
zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: sandro, tantek, aaronpk, jaywink, ajordan, rhiaro, cwebber
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Zakim
... bigbluehat
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, jankusanagi_, Gargron, xmpp-social, cwebber2, Loqi, ajordan, ben_thatmustbeme, dlongley, KjetilK_, MMN-o, jaywink, bwn, aaronpk, raucao, dwhly,
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Zakim
... astronouth7303, saranix, albino, csarven, michcioperz, wilkie, trackbot, rhiaro, sandro, nightpool, DenSchub, puckipedia, tsyesika, jet, tcit, bitbear, mattl, sknebel,
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tantek
chair: Tantek
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ajordan
/me cwebber2 thanks for merging those PRs :-)
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rhiaro
/me would but I have to leave early
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cwebber2
/me can hear fine
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cwebber2
/me can scribe but has a lot of stuff in the AP section
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2
topic: Approve last two weeks' minutes
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cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-07-18-minutes
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cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-06-27-minutes
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cwebber2
/me scrolls furiously
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cwebber2
<cwebber2> +1
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cwebber2
oh
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cwebber2
/me we need PROPOSED
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rhiaro
+1
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tantek
PROPOSED: Approve 2017-07-18 and 2017-06-27 minutes
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cwebber2
<cwebber2> +1
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aaronpk
+1
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sandro
+1
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ajordan
+1
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cwebber2
RESOLVED: Approve 2017-07-18 and 2017-06-27 minutes
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Loqi
Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103965&oldid=103964
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tantek
q?
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Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
cwebber2: we don't have enough time it seems to be able to cancel, so I'd prefer to either reinstate meetings or switch to 90 minutes meetings
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cwebber2
tantek: probably easier to do 90 min meetings, sandro said they may think that's what happens during times like this in other groups?
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cwebber2
sandro: yes
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tantek
PROPOSED: August telcons (as already scheduled per previous resolutions) extend to 90 minutes each
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cwebber2
cwebber: +1
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sandro
+1
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ajordan
+1
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aaronpk
+0
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rhiaro
+0
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jaywink
+0
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cwebber2
RESOLVED: August telcons (as already scheduled per previous resolutions) extend to 90 minutes each
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ajordan
/me afk for a couple minutes, still on the call though
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tantek
chair: sandro
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cwebber2
topic: Post Type Discovery
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cwebber2
tantek: feel like I'm making good progress on PTD, and there's feedback and a new implementation
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tantek
https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/25
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Loqi
[tantek] #25 Response Type: move "reply" to 2nd to last to enable p-summary fallback use-cases
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cwebber2
tantek: one thing I wanted to go over was issue 25, eg how to handle replies and fallback, it talks about extensibility a bit, which is adding new features over time which we've done in general for PTD. So specifically for responses, any kind of response like likes, posts, shares, we almost always have text equivalent which is something we've seen when people post things to twitter, or facebook has an "all activity" page where you can
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cwebber2
see everything you've done
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sandro
q?
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Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
tantek: that being the case, if some new response type comes up in the future, like you're bookmarking something or etc then you should always be able to say "hey this is a response" and then have text equivalent in summary property
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cwebber2
tantek: so any existing impls that don't know as response will be able to show something sensible, as in something author produced that shows something sensible
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cwebber2
tantek: I wanted to get feedback/observations on whether they agree/disagree, etc
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cwebber2
sandro: tantek, are you looking for general feedback or a vote?
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cwebber2
tantek: I feel pretty confident about this change so I wanted to bring to the group explicitly. other than objections and people saying "no you're wrong this will never work", I would like feedback on "this sounds reasonable", but I can accept lack of feedback. Ideally I'd like to say "accept my proposal and publish a new WD based on this change". that's my longest answer to you
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cwebber2
sandro: anyone have any feedback? seems like that's your quiet answer for now
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cwebber2
tantek: that's ok, figured this would be a group for feedback, but if people are fine I suggest we publish a new WD with this change
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cwebber2
tantek: I think that's a reasonable request to make?
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eprodrom
Hey friends
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cwebber2
sandro: seems fine
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cwebber2
/me hi eprodrom
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ajordan
heya eprodrom!
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cwebber2
tantek: ok, should I do a PROPOSED..?
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ajordan
+1
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eprodrom
/me waves to cwebber2
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ajordan
oops
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cwebber2
/me hi eprodrom :)
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tantek
PROPOSED: Publish new WD of Post Type Discovery with change as proposed by editor in https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/25
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Loqi
[tantek] #25 Response Type: move "reply" to 2nd to last to enable p-summary fallback use-cases
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ajordan
+1
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sandro
+1
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cwebber2
+1
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rhiaro
+1
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aaronpk
+1
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber2
/me eprodrom nice interview on The Changelog btw :)
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eprodrom
Ha
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cwebber2
RESOLVED: Publish new WD of Post Type Discovery with change as proposed by editor in https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/25
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Loqi
[tantek] #25 Response Type: move "reply" to 2nd to last to enable p-summary fallback use-cases
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eprodrom
I can't remember if I name checked you or not
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cwebber2
/me got it, delayed
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eprodrom
I'm pretty sure ajordan is in there.
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ajordan
eprodrom: not explicitly but you meantion "pump.io contributors", plural, which I thought was amusing
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eprodrom
ha
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eprodrom
aspirational
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cwebber2
/me eprodrom I'm namechecked as "the AP main editor has been very busy" :)
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sandro
even, audio?
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tantek
eprodrom: are you on the call?
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eprodrom
Well enough chat I'm supposed to be on a W3C socialwg con call right now
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cwebber2
/me lol
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ajordan
lol
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sandro
lol
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tantek
/me wait is this DM?
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eprodrom
ha ha
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eprodrom
present+
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eprodrom
whew
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sandro
eprodrom can you hear us>?
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cwebber2
/me decides they will coordinate hanging out for pizza and movies on a different venue then
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tantek
/me now wants a pizza
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eprodrom
I am here!
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ajordan
/me continues eating cereal :-)
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tantek
chair: eprodrom
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tantek
/me thanks the call for some unexpected humor this morning
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rhiaro
I can scribe for the next 30 mins
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rhiaro
scribenick: rhiaro
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ajordan
/me seconds tantek
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rhiaro
TOPIC: ActivityPub
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cwebber2
http://dustycloud.org/tmp/activitypub-test-suite-wip1.png
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rhiaro
cwebber2: This week I was going to have to have the test suite up, and I would if it weren't for that meddling language I am using
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rhiaro
... Screenshot ^ of the test suite
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rhiaro
... Tried against puckipedia's server and I had the very issue I was afraid of
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tantek
/me whoa this is a cool screenshot
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rhiaro
... since I'm uisng a cool new bleeding edge non blocking async implementation, something isn't implemented yet, and I have to add something to the language
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tantek
/me thought he heard "language level add"
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rhiaro
/me Jeez cwebber2, yak shaver extraordinaire
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tantek
/me is now curious what language
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rhiaro
... hopefully over the next week I will fix the language and have this rolled out
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rhiaro
... using Guile, a lisp-y Scheme thing
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eprodrom
Wow
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sandro
http://zeroplayer.com/images/stuff/doNotShave.png
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rhiaro
... Sometimes when your'e o the bleeding edge, you're bleeding.
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tantek
😂😂😂
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tantek
/me dying now
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ajordan
"edge" implies cliff
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ajordan
not "bleeding flat"
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rhiaro
eprodrom: The test suite is close to completion, but we're seeing bugs because of the underlying platform
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rhiaro
cwebber2: the client-to-server tests would be up
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tantek
/me ajordan that yak looks like it is on the edge of a cliff
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rhiaro
... That stuff is done
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ajordan
/me tantek oh my god
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rhiaro
eprodrom: I have a couple of questions
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rhiaro
... Looking at the screenshot, you have a number of 'OK's - are they not meaningful because of the async problem or is this something someone could run now?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: All those tests are meaningful
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Loqi
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103966&oldid=103965
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rhiaro
... The failed one is a bug I introduced right before I ran the test suite
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tantek
/me ajordan: to shave or bleed the yak on the edge of the cliff?
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rhiaro
... The tests are doing their things
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rhiaro
... they have caught legit things, like http status codes and headers
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rhiaro
... They work, it's just this blocking thing
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tantek
/me assures the readers of these logs in the future that no yaks were harmed nor intended to be harmed.
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ajordan
/me tantek pretty sure you can only bleed yaks under the 5th new moon of the year
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rhiaro
eprodrom: I'm wondeirng if there's any point in actually having people start using it immediatley?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I have a version running that people could look at but one single test that runs over https will pause the whole server
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rhiaro
... so there's not much point
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rhiaro
eprodrom: okay cool
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Moving on..
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rhiaro
... I have 4 issues on the agenda
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cwebber2
https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/235
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Loqi
[cwebber] #235 Add a Tag type
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rhiaro
... One is kicked out to an extension, but Evan was going to follow up
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rhiaro
... Evan you said you'd catch up with jasnell and find out the histoyr of why we don't have a Tag type
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rhiaro
... Mastodon just went ahead and added it to theirs
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rhiaro
... Even though we agreed that vocab extensions should move tan extension, I was curious if you'd heard from james
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rhiaro
eprodrom: I haven't talked to james, I will make a note
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rhiaro
... Could you assign this issue ot me?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: sure
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tantek
is this like a tagging action?
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tantek
/me reads the issue
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> tantek: no, an object
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cwebber2
https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/244
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Loqi
[cwebber] #244 Accept / Reject a Follow
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rhiaro
cwebber2: the next one is about the Accept/Reject stuff
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rhiaro
... talked to evan last week about it.. then did some more reasearch
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rhiaro
... Some servers think about Follow as 'hey I want to subscribe to your public updates'
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rhiaro
... in AP you can address to Public and/or followers, but not necessarily both
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rhiaro
... This is how twitter and mastodon have this concept
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rhiaro
... in Mastodon you might follow someone. Usually the follow is just automatic, but if they have a private account, they manually accept and reject who they're following
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rhiaro
... when they send stuff to followers that stuff is not public, it only goes to the followers collection
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rhiaro
... they're using it as like a trusted friends collection
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cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#modeling-friend-requests
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rhiaro
... at the end of last meeting, evan suggested we can still use the followers thing for the public subscribe, and pointed out that AS2 has a way of doing this kind of subscription using Offer and Accept/Reject on offer to do friend requests
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rhiaro
... I took a look and thought about it and unfortunately I think that's going to result in something disjoint, because we'll have two different mechanisms for follow
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rhiaro
... you still might send a Follow request to somebody and yu would effectivley be a diferent system
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rhiaro
... AJ raised a concern that maybe we won't get this specified in time
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rhiaro
eprodrom: These are two very different ways that different social networks do the social graph
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rhiaro
... The fact there are two different ways to do it is already out of the barn
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ajordan
q+
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Zakim
/me sees ajordan on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
... LinkedIn does it how facebook does it.. others don't have a two way relationship, instagram, snapchat, twitter
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rhiaro
cwebber2: twitter for public accounts
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rhiaro
eprodrom: Right. And twitter for private accounts is almost the same except it doesn't have the reciprical follow
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rhiaro
... We are not going to be able to dictate that all social system should work a particular way, and that's not to our benefit
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tantek
/me reads issue 244
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rhiaro
... We should be able to represent both
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rhiaro
cwebber2: So we have a suggestion that I thoguth was pretty good, summarised in last comment on the issue
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cwebber2
https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/244#issuecomment-317804296
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Loqi
[cwebber] Amy suggested over PM that: * If a server returns 200 or 201, assume the follow just went through * If returning 501, the server doesn't support following * If a server returns 202, then the server will send an Accept / Reject
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rhiaro
... ^
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rhiaro
... This would be backwards compatible
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rhiaro
... This does introduce another state which maybe is why evan is -1ing it
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rhiaro
eprodrom: We just tend to represent this kind of thing as activities not http replies
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rhiaro
... if you have different types of social graph behaviours we tend to represent them explicitly as json structures
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tantek
/me quietly thumbs-up the questions/comments he agrees with
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rhiaro
... Cant' we have two different mechanisms?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: if we implemented two different kinds..
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rhiaro
... a) if we add the Offer and relationship thing we're going ot have to add that like immediately and I'd need your help because I don't think I'd get it completely right
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rhiaro
... we need to give implementors guidence
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rhiaro
... and it needs to be in this draft
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rhiaro
... THe other side of it is I"m not sure the Accept/Reject, aside from backwards incompatability, is so bad, because if you look at the case Mastodon supports both
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rhiaro
... automatic public accounts, and private accounts
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rhiaro
... The implementation just automatically returns an accept if it's a public account
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Zakim
/me sees ajordan, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
q+
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rhiaro
q-
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Zakim
/me sees ajordan on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
... Evan. could you help with the text if we did the Offer thing?
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rhiaro
eprodrom: No
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rhiaro
... We can make it required to return an Accept or Reject
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rhiaro
... The relationship is always uni-directional
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rhiaro
... You can always structure that bidrectional using automatic requests
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rhiaro
cwebber2: You can always add those other types of things later right?
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ajordan
q-
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Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
eprodrom: Right. Alice wants to follow Bob, Alice sends a Follow to Bob and at that point the request is that their relationship is in a waiting state
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rhiaro
... then Alice should receive either an ACcept or Reject
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rhiaro
... While it's in the waiting state, Alice should not show up in Bob's list of followers, Bob should not show up in Alice's followees
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rhiaro
... Maybe there's a third stream of like open invitations that are in waiting
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rhiaro
... Might be useful for end users
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ajordan
q
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ajordan
+
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rhiaro
... There's if Alice's server receives any updates from Bob's server while in the waiting or Rejected state, it should reject them
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ajordan
q+
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Zakim
/me sees ajordan on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
... So no implicit acceptance becuase you start getting activities
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tantek
/me whenever people use "Alice" in these scenarios (especially websec related), for some reason it evokes Alice from Resident Evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(Resident_Evil)
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ajordan
q-
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Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I don't know about the reject thing because you can send activities to someone you're not following
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rhiaro
eprodrom: yep
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Servers that want to do the automatic reply can just immediately fire an automatic Accept
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rhiaro
eprodrom: and others can wait for a user input
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rhiaro
cwebber2: that simplifies things
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rhiaro
eprodrom: Let's do it
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rhiaro
cwebber2: do we need a resoution?
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> This sounds fine, totally fine with skipping the implicit Accept
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cwebber2
PROPOSED: Resolve issue #244 by having Follow be responded to with an explicit Accept / Reject as mandatory.
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ajordan
+1
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cwebber2
+1
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jaywink
+1
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rhiaro
+1
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eprodrom
-0
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rhiaro
eprodrom: I thought you were going to write the text
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tantek
"mandatory" as must or should?
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tantek
/me is confused
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tantek
/me would also prefer actual text since it is non-trivial
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rhiaro
... I mean not today. For discussion next week
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Sure, that's fine
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rhiaro
eprodrom: think through the edge cases, then come back with 'this part has been updated'
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tantek
+1 to what eprodrom just said
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I'll make a note on the ticket
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eprodrom
-1
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cwebber2
/me +1 to -1
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cwebber2
:)
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cwebber2
https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/240
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Loqi
[puckipedia] #240 Document `Undo`ing Blocks, and maybe reading back Blocks
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saranix
/me shakes head. Security! Mandatory == folly
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rhiaro
cwebber2: We have documentation about how to do some undos.. two proposals..
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tantek
/me doesn't disagree with saranix
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rhiaro
... 1. We add spec text on how to undo blocks
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rhiaro
... 2. Should we have a collection fro blocks themselves
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rhiaro
... We should do these one at a time
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rhiaro
... So the first one is are people comfortable adding normative spec text about how to undo a block
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tantek
q?
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Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
eprodrom: We have general undo discussion already right?
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cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#undo-activity-inbox
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rhiaro
... This is a refinement of the instructions, not a change in the way you would do undo?
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tantek
"how to" sounds like guideline, not normative text
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Right, the current undo phrase is very shrot and very general
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cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#undo-activity-outbox
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ajordan
/me saranix wat?
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rhiaro
... It says look at these inverse .. and it's referign to the client to server behaviour.. it's kind of vague
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rhiaro
... side effects should be undone to the extent possible
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rhiaro
... so you can already imagine what an unblock looks like
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rhiaro
... so actually it might be fine.. maybe we don't need to add text for that
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rhiaro
... I would be okay actually saying the text is fine as is
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ajordan
q+
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Zakim
/me sees ajordan on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
eprodrom: I'm not sure I have an opinion
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eprodrom
ack ajordan
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Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
ajordan: are we sayng that the spec text is good for this issue, for for point 1?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: for point 1 of the issue
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rhiaro
... Not the reading back part
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eprodrom
"For example, Undo may be used to undo a previous Like or Follow." -> "For example, Undo may be used to undo a previous Like, Follow or Block."
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rhiaro
... I'm moderately convinced actually that the spec text does a good job, and we can move on if everyone else is okay?
#
rhiaro
... Evan I think that resolves it
#
rhiaro
... Thes econd part is whether we should expose a private blocks/blocked collection?
#
rhiaro
... I can't think of the right grammar..
#
rhiaro
... We could add a blocks property to actors and say hey it should be in this collection. Useful for client to server, but suepr weird because only the actor would be able to read that collection. So it would be weird to notice that on a person's profile
#
rhiaro
... Seems strange, but would be okay with adding it
#
tantek
Flickr and Twitter both provide a viewable blocklist. Twitter provides API for reading it too.
#
rhiaro
eprodrom: Seems reasonable to me
#
rhiaro
cwebber2: I'll write wording and get this back next week
#
rhiaro
<rhiaro> cwebber2: I don't think it's weird, from an application standpoint (who is gonna be reading the data) seems fine
#
cwebber2
https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/242
#
Loqi
[cwebber] #242 sharedInbox / siteInbox type endpoint (publicInbox, but not just for public posts)
#
rhiaro
cwebber2: I'm just going for more group input on this cos nobody else was here
#
rhiaro
... Wiat I'm wrong, we discussed this
#
rhiaro
... Don't need to go over that again
#
rhiaro
... I think those are all the issues I wanted to review for this week
#
rhiaro
... Maybe I should make a new WD for next week?
#
tantek
new ED or CR?
#
rhiaro
... a new CR
#
rhiaro
... I think there have been a bunch of non-normative changes. I'll prepare a changelog for next week
#
rhiaro
eprodrom: We have one other item.. about schedule
#
rhiaro
cwebber2: we decided to move the ones we do have to 90 minutes
#
rhiaro
eprodrom: great
#
rhiaro
... Aaron and/or Julien?
#
rhiaro
TOPIC: WebSub
#
cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
#
rhiaro
/me perfect timing, my ride arrived and I have to go. Ciao!
#
cwebber2
/me thank you rhiaro
#
tantek
/me waves to rhiaro
#
tantek
what's next for WebSub?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I don't think there's anything new from last week, which means that we've got a couple of implementation reports, but nothing new
#
ajordan
/me bye rhiaro! thanks for being here
#
tantek
q+
#
Zakim
/me sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
TOPIC: JF2
#
cwebber2
/me ben gave regrets
#
eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme: are you here?
#
cwebber2
tantek: not on JF2 but on websub, I want to know what's next step on websub?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: good question, I think we have enough implementation reports to have one of each role
#
cwebber2
sandro: last time we talked about this I think I said we also need implementation reports to major existing implementations? mastodon for example
#
aaronpk
s/one of each/two of each
#
cwebber2
tantek: pushback from postActiv
#
cwebber2
(political)
#
cwebber2
tantek: and mastodon we don't know of?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: gargron not willing to submit it himself but suggested someone else could
#
cwebber2
tantek: didn't I see him do it live in #social?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: oh you're correct, that's hilarious
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: he ran through all tests and reported in irc, so I'll capture that into a report
#
cwebber2
tantek: should be acceptable because you can cite public logs
#
cwebber2
tantek: no news on google yet
#
cwebber2
tantek: what's drop-dead date on transition to PR?
#
cwebber2
sandro: we still have a while, I guess it's really like sometime in november
#
cwebber2
tantek: assuming we want to see Rec happen in-charter?
#
cwebber2
sandro: maybe Nov 1st
#
cwebber2
sandro: 5 weeks before charter, + a week or 2 for holidaze
#
cwebber2
/me holidaze https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH7mIKD6nTQ
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: next step to collect, november timeframe for websub?
#
ajordan
/me oh my
#
cwebber2
tantek: we believe websub reports exist, are waiting for reports?
#
cwebber2
sandro: I don't think we should wait that long if we don't have to, would be good to have wrapped up in september
#
cwebber2
sandro: unless we have a real reason to wait
#
cwebber2
/me eprodrom btw the reason you saw so many passing in the screenshot was because it was running against my implementation, testing against puck's found some more issues that need to be resolved on theirs, mistakes I had made also but had fixed in my implmentation
#
cwebber2
TOPIC: SocialCG
#
tantek
/me mutes
#
tantek
/me apologizes for laughing at the pronounciation, per bikeshedding of yore
#
cwebber2
cwebber: just the stuff we discussed today about accept/reject follow, etc, and http signatures, meetings tomorrow
#
cwebber2
TOPIC: MicroPub
#
tantek
/me also wonders if there are any open issues on Webmention
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: now that we're in Rec, if people find minor typos or larger possible issues (not adding features) what options might there be for normative issues?
#
tantek
issue link?
#
trackbot
/me doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
#
tantek
github issue link?
#
cwebber2
sandro: my understanding is that in the link you may point to errata, which could point to issues
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: what's the process of going from issue -> errata?
#
cwebber2
sandro: if there seems to be no disagreement, copy it over
#
cwebber2
sandro: more like traditional FOSS'y stuff, just assume everyone speaks for themselves and nobody has authority over anyone else, just document if nobody disagrees, if disagreement then document that too
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: makes sense but looser than I expected
#
cwebber2
sandro: I've never handled a case where errata happens during WG
#
cwebber2
tantek: CSS WG does this all the time
#
ajordan
/me this reminds me too that we never submitted application/activity+json to IANA
#
cwebber2
tantek: key part is you need to drive resolution of issues to PR
#
cwebber2
tantek: that you should do issue by issue in WG
#
cwebber2
tantek: I think that will help illuminate meta-discussion of how to move forward
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: specific to a specific issue?
#
tantek
the "errata" link in the REC links to https://github.com/w3c/micropub/tree/master/errata
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: there is an issue but I wanted to understand what to do in general since we have a running WG
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: could I pose a suggestion, which is anything you don't feel comfortable unilaterally updating might not be an eratta? may be something normative or which needs to go into next version of spec?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that may be a high bar right?
#
cwebber2
tantek: may be a bit too much burden to put on an editor, because it's a REC we have more bearing on what we need to do
#
cwebber2
tantek: we resolve it on how we resolve any other issue
#
cwebber2
tantek: since we have a link in the doc which links to an errata document, a WG resolution on an issue drives addition of stuff to that page. becomes a delta document of sorts
#
cwebber2
tantek: if we get to the point saying this is a non-trivial amount of errata, there's a process for releasing 1.01 or etc. depends on if it's normative or non-normative changes
#
cwebber2
tantek: we can cross those issues when we get there
#
cwebber2
q+ to ask about as2 extensions
#
Zakim
/me sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I tend to think of errata to see non-normative changes...
#
eprodrom
ack tantek
#
Zakim
/me sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/issues/101
#
Loqi
[voxpelli] #101 Should string really be a MUST for non-HTML content?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I'm on board with typo issues just filing them without discussing them, but this one is technically normative but spirit of this was incorrectly converted into text for the spec
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: the content property MUST either be an html object or a string
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: intent was by default it's text, if html it's html text which allows for ability to do extensions in future we haven't thought of now
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: way we have it now it's not technically possible to do extensions
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: this would be normative, but would allow extensions to happen.
#
cwebber2
tantek: it's normative, but
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: it's extensibility, not a feature itself
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: it's the ability to add features itself, not going to make it so you have to do things differently with current implementation to support features as-described in spec
#
cwebber2
tantek: that depends, what text do you have in terms of what to do when things aren't recognized?
#
cwebber2
tantek: does the spec say what to do if there are additional keys or not in content property?
#
cwebber2
tantek: if that's not explicit, there's work to do to research on right behavior and etc
#
cwebber2
tantek: are we documenting mutual agreement or disagreement?
#
cwebber2
tantek: that makes it basically a feature
#
cwebber2
tantek: feature is for compatibility, essentially
#
cwebber2
tantek: in that case you allow langugage that does
#
cwebber2
tantek: that allows for extensions to happen , etc
#
cwebber2
tantek: not a user-facing feature, but it allows interop
#
cwebber2
q?
#
Zakim
/me sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
/me sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack cwebber
#
Zakim
cwebber, you wanted to ask about as2 extensions
#
Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
#
ajordan
cwebber2: agenda+
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I've gotten lost in the conversation... aaronpk you're asking for guidance on normative errata?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: if they're normative, I'm not sure if there's anything to do but make a new version?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm confused as to next steps
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: for this particular issue, can this be filed as errata even though it's normative is question #1
#
tantek
regardless, good to start processing open issues (consensus on spec text change, document spec text change on errata page) https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/issues
#
cwebber2
sandro: can be filed as a recognized problem, but we can't say here is the approved solution... we can only take a solution as far as what would be a working draft, but we can't have w3c recognition on approved solution
#
cwebber2
tantek: if we believe resolution is what's approved we can take it to CR directly without WD
#
cwebber2
sandro: in theory, I'm not sure that's part of approved use of time
#
cwebber2
tantek: if it's a non-breaking change, maybe can move to PR directly
#
cwebber2
sandro: before anything goes to AC, I need to see if it's in-scope for extension which is debatable
#
cwebber2
tantek: it's open for interpretation, but IMO maintenance is something any charter extension would/should support
#
cwebber2
tantek: but before we try to answser the hard problem, if there are any typos or etc that you can resolve by proposing errata text to add to the doc etc and add to them, that would be a good start
#
cwebber2
tantek: maybe cherry pick an easy one for the next telcon, try to reduce set of open issues down to harder ones
#
cwebber2
tantek: can try to figure out least-impact path forward for those
#
ajordan
agenda+ cwebber2's as2 extensions question
#
Zakim
/me notes agendum 1 added
#
cwebber2
tantek: it'll keep you iterating with charter question
#
ajordan
agenda?
#
Zakim
/me sees 1 item remaining on the agenda:
#
Zakim
/me 1. cwebber2's as2 extensions question [from ajordan]
#
cwebber2
tantek: to make it normative we have to go through process sandro suggested
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: sounds reasonable to me
#
tantek
also notice there are open Webmention issues: https://github.com/w3c/Webmention/issues
#
tantek
/me sorry
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: all you needed for micropub?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: yes
#
tantek
so it's maybe worth starting Webmention errata similarly
#
ajordan
AS2 issues too: https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues
#
tantek
thanks ajordan
#
ajordan
:)
#
tantek
also note, zero open LDN issues: https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues therefore no need to errata anything
#
cwebber2
/me +1 sounds good
#
ajordan
q+
#
Zakim
/me sees ajordan on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: read through AS2 extension document first
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: sounds good
#
eprodrom
ack ajordan
#
Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
ajordan: I just wanted to point out that there's an open issue about submitting to IANA that seems particularly important to resolve
#
ajordan
https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/424
#
Loqi
[dissolve] #424 register media type with IANA
#
tantek
q+ to quickly mention Webmention issues https://github.com/w3c/webmention/issues and errata https://github.com/w3c/webmention/tree/master/errata
#
Zakim
/me sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that would be me, will look
#
tantek
q?
#
Zakim
/me sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I think that's our last item, if there's anything else we have 10 more minutes I'd love to get back
#
eprodrom
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to quickly mention Webmention issues https://github.com/w3c/webmention/issues and errata https://github.com/w3c/webmention/tree/master/errata
#
Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
tantek: similar to micropub we have open webmention issues that are probably worth processing into webmention errata, so aaronpk maybe see if you can quickly document into errata etc
#
cwebber2
tantek: vs request for new feature too, you can document separately, point is to process open issues
#
tantek
/me just got disconnected
#
cwebber2
/me oops my call dropped!
#
aaronpk
/me uhoh my phone disconnected. dialing back
#
cwebber2
oh
#
sandro
mine too
#
cwebber2
phone decided meeting over :)
#
aaronpk
oh good not just me
#
ajordan
/me mine too??
#
eprodrom
ha
#
eprodrom
We are close to done. I am still on the call.
#
cwebber2
seemed like a good place to stop
#
aaronpk
ha can't dial back in
#
eprodrom
OK, mine just stopped too
#
ajordan
/me "I don't think we extended this meeting" https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder429/500x/80014429/finding-nemo-seagull-we-did-we-did-we-did.jpg
#
ajordan
aaronpk: same
#
tantek
/me rejoined
#
eprodrom
OK, so, meeting over? Let's wrap now and we can discuss next meeting.
#
cwebber2
+1
#
eprodrom
tantek: did you have an additional point, or can we wrap?
#
tantek
was dropped mid sentence
#
tantek
point is to process open issues, and add to the errata accordingly, and close the issues hopefully, keeping the number of open issues at 0
#
ajordan
/me listened to tantek read ^^^ out loud in realtime :P
#
eprodrom
OK, let's wrap up.
#
eprodrom
Thanks, tantek
#
tantek
ok
#
tantek
q-
#
Zakim
/me sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Thanks everyone
#
eprodrom
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been sandro, tantek, aaronpk, jaywink, ajordan, rhiaro, cwebber, eprodrom
#
trackbot
/me is ending a teleconference.
#
ajordan
thanks all
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/25-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
tantek
cwebber++ for minuting
#
Loqi
cwebber has 24 karma
#
ajordan
cwebber2++
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 95 karma
#
ajordan
and rhiaro++ too!
#
ajordan
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 154 karma in this channel (273 overall)
#
cwebber2
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-07-25-minutes minutes posted
#
cwebber2
now off to lunch
#
ajordan
thanks cwebber2 :)
#
tantek
/me vaguely remembers a comment about pizza
#
Loqi
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-25-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103967&oldid=0
#
tantek
/me really wants pizza for lunch now.
#
saranix
/me comes back to console and the word "PIZZA" instantly jumps out in some sort of spinal/primordial pattern recognition
#
ajordan
cwebber2: https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/422#issuecomment-317838396
#
Loqi
[evanp] @strugee I don't know. I think that mechanism is a bad idea. I think the best you can do is do the brittle method, with possibly doing some type inferencing in JSON otherwise.
#
ajordan
"Object wrapped in Create" rears its head again
#
ajordan
I believe it was puckipedia who wanted an answer to this question?
#
ajordan
(the question being "how to determine whether an arbitrary object is a subclass of Activity?")
#
puckipedia
yep
#
ajordan
*deep sigh*
#
ajordan
I don't remember why that was added and I know cwebber2 likes it but tbh wrapping things in a Create clientside just doesn't seem like that much effort
#
ajordan
oh, right
#
ajordan
it was *because* people don't like Create
#
cwebber2
hi
#
cwebber2
I have a response to that, and I think Evan is wrong, you don't need to expand the context
#
cwebber2
but
#
cwebber2
you do need to encode the type heirarchy locally
#
puckipedia
<cwebber2> you do need to encode the type heirarchy locally <- won't work with extensions though
#
cwebber2
puckipedia: addressed in https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/422#issuecomment-317858561
#
Loqi
[cwebber] I've become over time a lot less of a fan of the "auto-wrap-in Create" feature, though I'm even *more* not a fan of requiring a Create at all... I think just-an-object could be the same as wrapping in Create, and the Create is indeed fairly artificia...
#
cwebber2
puckipedia: you can't handle extensions' side effects that you don't know about anyway
#
cwebber2
so them not being interpreted as Activities doesn't matter much
#
puckipedia
so now extensions are randomly wrapped in Create
#
puckipedia
I'd say require Create, and if a server can't process a specific activity just have it error
#
cwebber2
puckipedia: I don't think you should be accepting types in C2S that you don't know about
#
cwebber2
that your server doesn't know about
#
cwebber2
S2S, sure
#
cwebber2
but C2S? your server probably should reject them IMO
#
cwebber2
puckipedia: but I also don't think the auto-wrap-in-Create is all that great in the end either
#
cwebber2
I think Create kinda sucks
#
cwebber2
it's taken me a while but I agree with oshepherd's argument
#
cwebber2
Create is artificial
#
cwebber2
seeing just {Object} come across the wire for the first time, as the top level object, is effectively the same as {Create {Object}}
#
saranix
I ran into all this the other day and decided to sleep on it. Sleeping on it didn't help.
#
puckipedia
hm. yeah. this also solves the whole extension issue
#
puckipedia
though I do kinda like the distinct line between activities and objects
#
cwebber2
puckipedia: I like the distinction too
#
puckipedia
though AS2 / JSON-LD don't actually give any such guarantee
#
cwebber2
what you're really saying is, an Activity is something with side effects... a verb
#
cwebber2
but plenty of objects we send across the wire, you need to store them locally in your db anyway
#
cwebber2
so when you see {Like {Object}} and you never saw {Object} before
#
cwebber2
*most* implemntations will save {Object}
#
cwebber2
so why not with just {Object} on its own
#
cwebber2
I'm going to write up an issue proposing this :P
#
puckipedia
hm, whatever we do, please don't do whatever OStatus does
#
cwebber2
puckipedia: what's that?
#
puckipedia
which is making the {Create} implicit, /buuuut/ can also be represented explicitly
#
puckipedia
which means that Mastodon/GNU Social don't differentiate between the implicit Create and the object
#
cwebber2
uhoh, that was exactly what I was going to suggest ;)
#
puckipedia
well, didn't you suggest just scrapping Create altogether?
#
puckipedia
I mean, if you want, you can implicitly use a Create in OStatus. but Mastodon won't read it because it isn't implicit
#
puckipedia
but yeah. I'd be OK with removing the Create if that's the average consensus. I would have more issues if it were possible to use it, but not required
#
saranix
For me, I felt like the Create actually solved a lot of things
#
cwebber2
saranix: which things?
#
cwebber2
I mean, I like the "you always have a sentence" aspect of AP
#
cwebber2
but it still does feel artificial at times
# JanKusanagi joined the channel
#
saranix
handling objs you don't understand kind of... so you can store 'em by supporting the Create and let the client figure out the subobject
#
cwebber2
oh yeah sandro, this is why I say "holidaze" also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH7mIKD6nTQ
#
cwebber2
linked it earlier but we had a meeting with real audio then ;)
#
cwebber2
might not be as enjoyable if you didn't play 1990s japanese rpgs I guess :P
#
sandro
/me chuckles briefly
# timbl joined the channel
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tantek
greetings #social
#
tantek
as informally mentioned on the telecon this morning (audio) before we started officially, here's my summary and scene by scene listings of the features demonstrated in the The Social Network trailer, as material for a social web test where the different roles are performed by people with different services/sites/implementations: https://indieweb.org/The_Social_Network#Trailer
#
Loqi
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103971&oldid=103846
#
saranix
a quote from hubzillaland "Protocols design is like this: if the protocol designer only can think of saying A, then all you will get to say is A. This is fine if all you want to say is A. If you can think of more to say than A, something clever, like B, but you are only allowed to say A, you will become unhappy fairly quickly. This is not the problem, the problem is the millions of people who believe getting to say A is really amazing."
#
ajordan
saranix: huh?
#
ajordan
I'm guessing in this case Hubzilla can say A and B and silos can only say A? and they're complaining that people think being able to say A is really amazing?
#
saranix
ajordan: pretty much :)
#
ajordan
lol
#
ajordan
I have a lot of thoughts on that but I don't want to rant so I'll shut up instead
# xmpp-social joined the channel